Water Softener: Good Idea?

[Gone West]

7 hours ago, RichS said:

 

Does that make my water considerably harder or softer than yours??

It makes it a lot softer than ours. According to the hardness table 60 - 120ppm is moderately hard and over 180ppm is very hard.

Sorry I posted before realising you had already found the answer.

Edited February 8, 2018 by PeterStarck

[TerryE]

We've also got a Harvey treating the entire potable supply. Works well. No more limescale; work surfaces, bathrooms, crockery, pans so much cleaner and easier to clean than without.

 

The system uses a mechanical counter on used water volume to trigger the brine backflush, and there are four different gearings which sets the flush rate.   My only slight quibble is that I suspect that the suppliers err on the salt heavy side in selecting the gearing.  They certainly did in our case compared to the local Anglian hardness report.   Higher frequency flush cycles mean less chance of complaints of residual hardness, and more sales of the salt bricks which aren't cheap.

[swisscheese]

I think I've been convinced that at this stage of the build a Water softener might be a good idea for us, given both the hardness of the water and the "hardness" of the wife

 

Any obvious pros/cons I should be looking at for the electric, non-electric offerings?

Regen time, litres of water used per regen? amount of salt per regen....and obviously price.

 

Any real kickers I should be looking out for?

 

 

 

[IanR]

We've got a Monarch system, Ultimate Master is the model. We've not had a softener before and previously really suffered with limescale on everything plumbing related, ours is a moderate-to-high hardness area.

 

Really like the result of having a softener in the system, so far no signs of any limescale after 6 months (apart from slight milky residue on glass shower screen that wipes off), and very noticeable how little soap is required.

 

I thought we were using a lot of salt, ie. 25kg  covers approx. 30,000 - 35,000 ltrs, but on research that seems about right for an electronic softener.

 

While the salt shouldn't get into the supply for the house I have noticed on one occasion a heavy brine taste on the softened water. This surprised me and I'm working through the installation instructions to make sure everything has been done correctly. 

[Jeremy Harris]

23 minutes ago, IanR said:

While the salt shouldn't get into the supply for the house I have noticed on one occasion a heavy brine taste on the softened water. This surprised me and I'm working through the installation instructions to make sure everything has been done correctly. 

 

I found that this can happen with the Harvey (and all the many re-badged Harvey units, Twin-Tec etc) if the outlet pressure momentarily exceeds the inlet pressure during a regen cycle.  In my case it was because I had a 100 litre pressure vessel after the softener and accidentally allowed the inlet pressure to drop too low (I was working on the borehole system at the time).  This did result in salty water!

 

The fix was easy, I just re-positioned the 100 litre pressure vessel to the inlet side and added a non-return valve to the outlet.  That removes any possible chance of a reverse pressure event occurring.  Since then all has been well.

 

The main thing I like about the Harvey system is that it doesn't need an electrical connection.  There are a couple of others that don't either, but Harvey claim to have the best water meter on their unit (not sure if that's true or not now).

[Gone West]

7 hours ago, TerryE said:

My only slight quibble is that I suspect that the suppliers err on the salt heavy side in selecting the gearing.  They certainly did in our case compared to the local Anglian hardness report. 

When we recently bought our Harvey softener I gave our hardness level to the supplier so they could set the correct gearing. They said they normally set the level from the post code. Our hardness does vary a bit from winter to summer depending on the ratio of surface water to aquifer water in the supply.

[Jeremy Harris]

The hardness setting is marked on the inner unit on ours.  I have two, as I bought an unused one on ebay for something like £50, that was being sold for spares (it was a brand new unit that had been stored for two years, but they had lost the fitting kit), and that has the same hardness setting.  I'm not sure how much variation there is available, but having taken the water meter apart on the spare, I can say that it doesn't look an easy thing to change!

[TerryE]

16 hours ago, JSHarris said:

I'm not sure how much variation there is available, but having taken the water meter apart on the spare, I can say that it doesn't look an easy thing to change!

 

I did some research and there are four different model numbers but the only difference is on the reduction gears which determine how often the backflush is triggered.

[Jeremy Harris]

I can advise that taking the water metering head off is not advisable!  Getting the gears all back in place after they've all come off their spindles as you lift the cover is very far from easy..............

 

The perils of being intrinsically curious by nature; I just had to take the thing apart to see how it worked.

[TerryE]

On 10/02/2018 at 10:17, JSHarris said:

The perils of being intrinsically curious by nature; I just had to take the thing apart to see how it worked

 

So am I, but I also have a not so little Jiminy Cricket who will let me know in no uncertain terms when I am moving in the Pandora direction   so in this case my caution gets the upper hand.

[volcane]

Hi All,

 

I'm trying to get the items required to bring our house together. Our water is not massively hard but hard enough to believe that a softener would be useful, even if only being able to keep bathrooms cleaner. We also are planning to fit a Quooker boiling tap.

 

The softeners available locally seem to be limited and its difficult to know which one would work for our house. We have good incoming mains pressure to a 32mm connection (1 bath 5 showers).  Some of the companies seem to attach a large amount of mysticism to their offerings, and most want to do a 'home survey'. I can't see the need for for fancy electronic APP controls that are offered on the higher capacity devices.

 

I just want to buy a good reliable cheap to run unit, that my plumber can fit.

 

has anyone any experience of the ecowater system? this seems to be the best offered locally.

 

https://www.ecowater-softeners.co.uk/water-softener-large-home

 

many thanks

 

 

[richi]

Are you sure you need a true softener? I'm pretty happy with my Combimate. The sequestered calcium dries to dust, which simply rubs off taps, etc. (rather than sticking).

See this earlier comment and a few below it...

 

[Mr Punter]

2 hours ago, richi said:

Are you sure you need a true softener? I'm pretty happy with my Combimate. The sequestered calcium dries to dust, which simply rubs off taps, etc. (rather than sticking).

 See this earlier comment and a few below it...

 

 

I have had these fitted and while they seem to work OK be cautioned that if the house is not used for a couple of months you MUST remove the Combiphos or they will break down and clog your plumbing system.

[richi]

Good point. As Cistermiser put it in their website FAQ:

 

Quote

Combiphos immersed in static water for more than two months without through-flow will start to deteriorate and will eventually form into a solid mass.

 

[volcane]

On 04/08/2018 at 10:07, richi said:

Good point. As Cistermiser put it in their website FAQ:

 

 

 @richiThanks, My water is medium hard when I check the NI water website with my postcode, I mainly want the softener to make the showers and glass panels easier to clean and to allow appliances to have an easier and hopefully longer life. I'm not sure if any residue even if it just wipes off would be acceptable!

 

So I'm still trying to source a softener for my 5 shower house!!

 

regards

 

[D Walter]

Hi, I would like to pick your collective brains on water softeners and use with instant boiling water taps.  We are on the Isle of Wight with "hard" water (107 Ca mg/l) and are looking to install either a Harveys or Kinetico softener.  We are also looking at the Quooker Flex Pro3 instant boiling water tap which provides a mixer function from the hot water cylinder and cold mains and an instant boiling water function from a 3 litre vaccum tank, again fed from the cold mains.  We are plumbing the kitchen with (i) unsoftened cold mains water, (ii) softened cold mains water; and (iii) softened hot water from the HW cylinder.

 

We therefore have the option of feeding the Quooker cold supply from: a) softened or b) unsoftened ("raw") cold water mains.  If we use softened mains our cooking and tea/coffee would be from fully softened water which may not be ideal from a taste/mineral content perspective.  If we use raw water we run the risk of the Quooker scaling which will neccessitate an annual service.  Quooker does sell a water softener kit (£245) with a bi-annually replaceable filter (£50 each) but that is prohibitive and goes against the grain if we are softening the mains water anyway. Quooker states: "The Scale Control has been developed to lengthen the lifespan of your Quooker by reducing the water hardness. It is the most reliable descaling solution for the Quooker and improves the taste of the Quooker water. The Scale Control works with an high-capacity ion exchange cartridge (2750 litres at 10°dH) that can easily be replaced at the end of its lifespan."  From this it looks like the hardnes is reduced to the point that scaling does not occur but presumably does not have the same impact as the mains water softener.   Incidentially, they also sell a water filter kit at similar price.

 

We do have the option of having a separate cold water tap, possibly with its own filter, for drinking water and we could use that with a kettle for tea and coffee but that largely negates the point of the Quooker.

 

Another possibility is to install an alternative water filter between the raw water feed and the Quooker which reduces limescale and deals with other contaminants.  An example of this is the Osmio EzfitPro 300 https://www.osmiowater.co.uk/watts-ezfitpro-ii-ultracarb-and-fluoride-water-filter-system.html.

This system costs £119 and contains a limescale and chlorine filter and a separate Active Ceramic filter with an combined annual filter cost of approximately £90. 

 

I would welcome any advice/experience and any thoughts on alternative instant hot water solutions.

 

Thanks David

[jack]

We have a Quooker (same model, I think) and were advised to use unsoftened water. We're in a moderately hard area I believe.

 

Descaling is actually a really simple process. The scale doesn't build up on the element - it just falls off in little flakes and sits in the bottom of the unit. If you have any diy skills at all, it's a simple matter to take the lid off, tip out the water with the scale, and put it back together (you must use a new seal, which I think they provide at least once for free if you ask them).

 

We had a problem with ours about two years after installation. I can't fault the quality of Quooker's after-sales service - the engineer was here for 90 mins diagnosing and then fixing the problem.

[Jeremy Harris]

I did a few rough calculations about the impact of drinking softened water (I've been on a low sodium diet for years) and concluded that much of what's been written in the past about the apparent risk of drinking softened water is almost certainly scaremongering for most areas in the UK.  Harvey have a couple of sections of their website that deal with this, that's worth a read: https://www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk/blog/health-effects-drinking-softened-water and also here: https://www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk/water-softener/faqs/why-it-considered-drinking-softened-water-could-be-detrimental-health .  To put this into perspective, it seems important to maintain a balance between sodium intake and potassium intake, from all I've read.  If you have a diet that's very low in potassium, or have a water supply that is very hard, then there may be a slightly elevated risk. 

 

I asked some questions as to whether it was OK to use softened water in our boiling water tap (an Itho, which isn't sold under that label in the UK any more) and at first was told that it wasn't OK.  I then tracked down the original manufacturer of the softening filter and obtained the specification for it from them (not easy, the thing had been re-badged twice). What I found was that the softening cartridge filter that was supplied with the tap was in fact a sodium ion exchange resin cartridge that was pre-charged with sodium, so was giving out softened water that was much the same as that which comes out of our ion exchange softener (which is a Harvey unit). 

 

I went back to the tap manufacturer and asked again about using softened water, highlighting that the specification of the softening filter they supplied with the installation kit was actually a ordinary sodium ion exchange resin unit, and they wrote back saying that there was no problem using softened water with their tap at all.  I was left with the feeling that their original insistence on using their (very expensive to replace) filter, and not connecting a softened water supply directly to the tap was probably a marketing ruse so that customers would feel obliged to carrying on buying very expensive, custom branded, replacement softening filters from them every six months.

 

As far as taste goes, then I find that tea made with softened water and the boiling water tap tastes better, and doesn't have the nasty scum, than tea made using a kettle and our local fairly hard water.  I suppose it's a matter of taste, but we lived in Cornwall for many years, then South West Scotland for a few years, so we're very used to the taste of tea made with very soft water, and found the taste of the hard water when we moved down here pretty unpleasant.

 

 

[Bitpipe]

1 hour ago, jack said:

We have a Quooker (same model, I think) and were advised to use unsoftened water. We're in a moderately hard area I believe.

 

Descaling is actually a really simple process. The scale doesn't build up on the element - it just falls off in little flakes and sits in the bottom of the unit. If you have any diy skills at all, it's a simple matter to take the lid off, tip out the water with the scale, and put it back together (you must use a new seal, which I think they provide at least once for free if you ask them).

 

We had a problem with ours about two years after installation. I can't fault the quality of Quooker's after-sales service - the engineer was here for 90 mins diagnosing and then fixing the problem.

 

I've done this also, easy peasy.

[D Walter]

Thanks to everyone for your responses.  With softened and raw supplies to the kitchen I can keep my options open and change later if I am unhappy with my original choice.  It was really helpful a) to hear that servicing the Quooker is so simple; and b) that the alternative limescale filters basically do the same job as the whole house water softener.  I will probably start with softened water to the Quooker and a separate raw cold water drinking tap. 

[D Walter]

A follow up question on use of softened water, this time for window cleaning.  We will shortly be installing our water softener and have an external "soft" water tap specifically for window and car cleaning.  Having done a bit of reading on the internet it appears that the ion exchange system for softening water (Harveys etc..) leaves sodium and other contaminants which can result in streaks and spots on windows.  Professional window cleaners seem to use de-ionisers and reverse osmosis systems to "clean" the water.   As we have a lot of glass I am beginning to think about the issue of cleaning and wondered if anyone had any suggestions/tips.

 

Thanks in advance.  David

[Jeremy Harris]

14 hours ago, D Walter said:

A follow up question on use of softened water, this time for window cleaning.  We will shortly be installing our water softener and have an external "soft" water tap specifically for window and car cleaning.  Having done a bit of reading on the internet it appears that the ion exchange system for softening water (Harveys etc..) leaves sodium and other contaminants which can result in streaks and spots on windows.  Professional window cleaners seem to use de-ionisers and reverse osmosis systems to "clean" the water.   As we have a lot of glass I am beginning to think about the issue of cleaning and wondered if anyone had any suggestions/tips.

 

Thanks in advance.  David

 

Yes, softened water does leave some slight marks on the glass if not squeegeed off well, but not as bad as hard water.  I just wash ours with softened water, squeegee them off then give them a squirt of Screwfix own brand window cleaner, polished off with the cheap Screwfix microfibre cloths.  Seems to work OK, and a bottle of the cleaner easily lasts a year or so.