Council tax valuation bandings

[Calvinmiddle]

Just got off a the phone with the Valuation Office Agency who asked me to identify similar sized properties as I'm challenging the banding.

Helpful enough person on the phone but after she looked at 18 comparable sized bungalows she said only one was of a comparable size.  

I asked her who came up with the size she said it would be from the survey and when I kept pressing her I didn't get anymore info.  I then asked what size do they have and she replied aghast that she couldn't give that information out over the phone, and that I would have to write in.

So I found about 50 houses in total that I think are comparable to mine, first I need to get the size they have for mine and challenge that if they have over estimated it if they measured the external walls (does the number of bedrooms matter?)

But I'd also like to see the size they have for the other houses as I'm sure some of them are definitely of a similar size to mine.

Does anyone know if they will give me that information out if I write to them?  Which would allow me to compare the sizes.

[Stones]

Yes, they have to provide you with any information you request in respect of other houses they have assessed and banded.  They are highly unlikely to volunteer any information.   I think these things are always better in writing anyway, that way they can't wriggle out of it by claiming at a future appeal that you hadn't asked for it.  As a belt and braces approach, I would also start the formal process of appealing if you haven't already done so (you have up to 6 months to challenge any banding IIRC and start an appeal).

I've previously posted on this topic and append that information below:

When we built our last house in 2010, I arranged for the district assessor to come out just prior to completion, so that by the time I had my completion certificate and would be liable to pay, everything would be arranged and I wouldn't be hit with a large back payment.

The assessor duly came out, had a look round and measured the exterior footprint. I subsequently got my banding back - F. As my house had an internal footprint of 130m2, I felt this was too high and decided to appeal.

This process was free and is open to anyone, however you have to recognise that nobody will volunteer help or assistance and that it is up to you as the person appealing to produce the evidence required. I was perhaps a little fortunate in that a relative was at the time, chair of the local valuation appeals committee, and was thus a useful source of advice and anecdotal information. 

The most helpful advice was what would be required for a successful appeal - evidence of comparable dwellings at the band I thought my house should be. Sadly, the majority of appeals are unsuccessful, primarily because those appealing do not present evidence or arguments to support their claim.

I began by requesting banding information for a number of local houses in the area, some smaller, some bigger and crucially, those I thought were of a similar size. The assessors office are obliged to provide this information but will not volunteer it.

The basis of my appeal was that by measuring the external footprint of the house, the assessor had not taken into account the fact that the depth of my walls were 100mm greater than other houses in the local area (those built in the 1990s using a 90mm timber frame, 50 mm cavity, 100mm block leaf as opposed to my 190mm frame 50 mm cavity, 100mm block leaf), and had thus overvalued my house as such frames depths were simply not used at the point of valuation benchmark (1991). 

Whilst the 100mm difference doesn't sound much in of itself, it does actually make a significant difference to your external footprint, especially as in the case of my house which is effectively made of three rectangles joined together as opposed to other local houses which were simple single rectangles.

I therefore submitted drawings (building outlines hand drawn on graph paper) showing the reduction in the external footprint based on my house having a 90mm frame, and the reduction showing my house with a 90mm frame and a simple rectangle shape. 

From the information provided by the assessors office, I then compared these lower external footprints to that of neighbouring houses, highlighting to the assessor that by comparing my house on a like for like basis (90mm frame) it had a lower external footprint than several neighbouring houses which were band E.

It took a long time, and I was asked to submit details of the building system / copies of building warrant plans to show the build make up of my wall, but 18 months on (after a bit of chasing) I received a letter from the assessors office advising me that my they were altering the banding for my house from F down to E. 18 months of over-payment refunded and I save myself £300 a year in Council Tax and water charges.

My case did not go to the appeals committee - my relative suggested that this was to avoid the assessor losing a case and providing precedent for others.

 

[PeterW]

So humour me here ... Do they use the internal floor area or external and multiply by 2..?

Just wondering what is included to make sure it's like for like ..!!

 

[Stones]

External measurements for ground floor, internal for first floor and up.  Reductions applied for coombed ceiling (anything below circa 1.6m in height is discounted)

[Ferdinand]

You can get a internal(?) measured floor area off the EPC certificate, and these are public domain. It is done by a pro with a qualification.

epcregister.co uk allows address and postcode search.

There is the possibility that they may be out of date due to recent building work since they are valid for iirc 10 years.

Ferdinand

Edited June 20, 2016 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

Thanks for reminding me about the assumption of internal floor area based only on the external ground floor measurements - it's reminded me to make sure I give the VOA as much verifiable evidence as to the true internal area as possible. 

Worth noting that they are still working off the rules that are in the very old Rating Act as far as sizing for valuation is concerned, so this means they assume 1969 (IIRC) wall thicknesses, unless you can make them take into account your much thicker walls.

[Stones]

I provided both manufacturer information in respect of the build system we used, and copies of stamped building warrant plans as evidence, both of which were accepted.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Stones

[ProDave]

Ours was quite simple.

I submitted my appeal, having found a number of similar sized houses for sale that were two bands lower, so a 2 band reduction is what I asked for.

The council did not agree so it was set to go to a hearing, where I would be given the opportinity to present my case as to why I thought it should be lower, and they would present their case as to why it was the band the originally set.  The day before the hearing I received a phone call offering not to go to the hearing and they would reduce it by one band, which I accepted.

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Ours was quite simple.

I submitted my appeal, having found a number of similar sized houses for sale that were two bands lower, so a 2 band reduction is what I asked for.

The council did not agree so it was set to go to a hearing, where I would be given the opportinity to present my case as to why I thought it should be lower, and they would present their case as to why it was the band the originally set.  The day before the hearing I received a phone call offering not to go to the hearing and they would reduce it by one band, which i accepted.

Our case was almost the same. They don't want to go to tribunal and if you have a reasonable case and don't back down, they give up at the last minute.

[Calvinmiddle]

My thinking is that she is saying that the houses are all smaller than ours. Is it ok for me to ask of the sizes they have for 50+ houses as well as checking the size they have on file for ours?

[PeterW]

Rightmove is a pretty good source of house plans so you can look at the floor plans and work out who's  got something of similar size. 

Then check out their rating from the VOA site. 

 

[Ferdinand]

8 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Rightmove is a pretty good source of house plans so you can look at the floor plans and work out who's  got something of similar size. 

Then check out their rating from the VOA site. 

 

Or just read the number off the EPC certificate 

[Calvinmiddle]

All good ideas, but this is a bungalow, and although there is more of them than i thought they don't come onto the market that often.  So rightmove isn't any use and besides somehow the agents around here have convinced sellers that floor plans are only needed for larger houses.  I had to fight to get one included for no extra charge in my 3 bed house we are selling.

The thing is the VOA banding is public knowledge and in the public domain, but they seem to base this off some measurement they have - I want access to this as it will be a damn sight easier for me to compare the sizes if I have this info as well.  And seeing they are putting the onus on me to show them comparable sized bungalows it would be less of a waste of my time to be able give them the details of the similar sized ones than have someone say "no they are all smaller than yours" on the phone without telling me the flipping sizes!!

So the question is will they give me the sizes of a list of 50+ houses?  Surely I could invoke the Freedom of Information act if they start to play silly buggers couldn't I?

[PeterW]

Google Earth maps ..?? Spot a few likely candidates, snap an aerial image and overlay a rough shape of yours to see what's within a similar area ..??

[Calvinmiddle]

That's what I have done, and I got the response, "they are much smaller than yours"  I need to see what they are looking at, because they look similar sized to me......

So either they have got a stupid size for mine, or they are just being awkward as possible so they don't have to change the band.  I have little to zero trust of this kind of process.  I can see why they don't put on the website the size they have as well as the banding.  Then it would be easy for me to give them a list of similar sized bungalows for them to compare to prove they are trying to give me a high banding.

[PeterW]

Sounds like you need to do the appeal with the 6 nearest sized ones (2 above, 2 same, 2 smaller) and look them all up on VOA. Then submit the appeal with the info and see what happens - you can but try...!

I've spent this evening checking the VOA and houses round the site in readiness !!!!

[MikeSharp01]

Hmmm... reading this has got me a bit worried. Sounds like a mine field but I know a friend of ours had the 'back down at last minute' on the ratings issue.

On our build we are intending to construct a garden room, at the end of the garden, and this was included in the PP to prevent permitted development rights being removed by the planning team which would stop us doing it alongside the main build. I am wondering if the area of that space is included in the rating or is it just the main dwelling?

[Calvinmiddle]

We seem to live in a area where 3 houses that look the same on google maps on the same road have 3 different bandings.  All the ones I'm asking about are a Band D, see little point sending them anything that might prove they are right......  There should be enough variation within the D band to find something the same.  Current house is a Band D and is slightly bigger.  But apparently that doesn't count as this is a house and not a bungalow.....

[Onoff]

We bought a shell as our first house that was about 2/3 the valuation of the adjacent, similar properties. Tried to argue for a lower banding whilst we were renovating. They basically rejected the application. 

A lot of people were trying it. The council in question set up a small office in a separate building on a road that runs between 3 towns with a deadline for applications with an ambiguous address. There were stories of people delivering their application to "1 New Road" in Town A rather than the "correct" address.

 

 

[Ferdinand]

On 20 June 2016 at 22:28, Calvinmiddle said:

All good ideas, but this is a bungalow, and although there is more of them than i thought they don't come onto the market that often.  So rightmove isn't any use and besides somehow the agents around here have convinced sellers that floor plans are only needed for larger houses.  I had to fight to get one included for no extra charge in my 3 bed house we are selling.

The thing is the VOA banding is public knowledge and in the public domain, but they seem to base this off some measurement they have - I want access to this as it will be a damn sight easier for me to compare the sizes if I have this info as well.  And seeing they are putting the onus on me to show them comparable sized bungalows it would be less of a waste of my time to be able give them the details of the similar sized ones than have someone say "no they are all smaller then yours" on the phone without telling me the flipping sizes!!

So the question is will they give me the sizes of a list of 50+ houses?  Surely I could invoke the Freedom of Information act if they start to lay silly buggers couldn't I?

Post the first 10 postcodes and house numbers here, and I can get those available for you.

Ferdinand

[Stones]

I've just had a look through the paperwork that I still have from our last house.  First off, you need to ask the VAO to provide sales evidence to support their assessment of your property.  That way you can see exactly what they are comparing your house to.

Next you need decide on your grounds for appeal, and a general feeling that the banding is too high isn't going to be enough.  You need to be able to base your arguments on something measurable, assessed floorspace being the most straightforward.

The sales information that your VAO will give you will probably cover a fairly wide geographical area.  My advice would be to identify a number of houses local to you which you think are comparable to your own, visit the Assessors office and inspect the register to establish what band the house are in. Ideally you need to identify houses that were either built at or around the valuation benchmark year (1991) or last sold around that time, so that the comparison valuations you use are relevant. Once you have done that, ask for the sales evidence and banding information for those houses, which should include the assessed floor area.

I think you have to be reasonable and specific in the information you request, and have to accept that they will only do the minimum required to help you.  If they refuse, I would politely remind them that the valuation appeals committee would take a dim view of them refusing to provide reasonably requested information.

Indexing back from the current valuation will not be accepted as evidence.

[Calvinmiddle]

On 21 June 2016 at 08:44, Ferdinand said:

Post the fist 10 postcodes and house numbers here, and I can get those available for you.

Ferdinand

Just seeing this now, will do it tonight, thanks

[Calvinmiddle]

On 6/22/2016 at 08:57, Calvinmiddle said:

Just seeing this now, will do it tonight, thanks

Ferdinand

Have just sent you a PM