Sleeplessness and self-building and self-help

[ToughButterCup]

The most pernicious aspect of self building is sleeplessness. Hands down, no contest, it's awful. I'd rather have no money in the bank than be constantly sleep deprived.

(Maslow's Hierarchy)

 

No matter how good a day you've had,  it manages to  kick the ground out from under your feet: and once its started, it happens  not once or twice  but - OFTEN-

Adrenaline has a certain fizz to it doesn't it? Great when you're playing with the kids, walking in the hills,  laughing with mates, skiing, sailing on a reach.

 

But at 03:00 it's a real fekkin' bastard. And when thats already happened three nights this week - I've been reduced to a Zombie for much of the following day. And this - in my direct experience - in the context of having professionally been required to lose sleep and get on with it over extended periods. I know from experience, sleeplessness stops. But that was last century when I was fit and sap was on the way up the tree.  But still, boy oh boy,  did I make mistakes when sleep deprived. Luckily I was working with experienced people whose job it was to keep an eye on me. And who relied on me in turn to watch their back.

 

But self-builders don't have that do they?

 

It's you, lonely little knackered but brave you. Watching the sheep cavort on the ceiling. Heart beating faster than .... [insert appropriate simile here] 

@Pocster watching for non-existent drips coming out of the ceiling ?

@Onoff seeing a new - but expensive - laser level ?

@SteamyTea finding a hitherto unknown data set ?

@Gus Potter fantasising about being able to do complex stress calculations in his head ?

 

All of us - every man-jack-jill-one of us has suffered the delights. And ( like me) , you probably still are to a greater or lesser extent. Depends on the stimulus doesn't it.

 

 

So, let's have a list of how you've coped with it. There's no cure. But we can have a bit of self help....... we're good at that.

Over to you.

[SimonD]

You're going through a really tough time at the moment, aren't you?

 

If what's playing on my mind is something that I can do, either immediately or the following day, I either get up and do it, or resolve in my mind to do it the very next day. There's been more than a few times my wife gets up in the morning and remarks on that I was up particularly early. And if I haven't slept properly at night, I will fairly often take time out in the afternoon to have a nap - naps are just absolutely brilliant for recovery. 

 

If it is just too much stuff whizzing around in my mind, I never try to fight it by tossing and turning in bed. I get up, go read a book, watch a film, do something that completely takes my mind away. Usually, after a while, I find myself falling asleep, even if it is on the sofa. 

 

One of the key things is not to worry about, or get yourself wound up about the not sleeping as that just makes things worse.

[mjc55]

Great post!

 

Sleep, as you say is such an important part of life. 

 

For my part I am pretty fortunate that I have very little trouble sleeping.  That's not to say that there are nights when my head is turning over many thoughts about what happens next on the build. but in the main I do manage to get to sleep pretty quickly.

 

One of the rules that we mostly manage to keep to is that my wife and I do not tend to talk about the job when we get in bed, again, that is not to say that we don't fail on that part but generally if we do slip into build conversation, one or other of us reminds us that it is not the best time to start build discussions.

 

The other thing that we tend to try and do is watch some TV before bed and we try and make it something light that is watched last thing.  Mostly comedies (we finished re-watching Derry Girls last night) and of late it has been This Country, The Detectorists and The Office.  Obviously this may not be to everyone’s taste but it works for us.

 

As ever, our motto is Onwards and Upwards!

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

So, let's have a list of how you've coped with it.

 

 

&

 

[Andeh]

I found easy listening podcasts and a sleep earphones/sleep masks with built in headphones helped a lot.

 

Waking in the night, instead of digging into my own thoughts, the podcast would be playing, and I'd be able to focus listening on that to help me go back to sleep.

 

 talk radio etc means you're not missing anything by sleeping through it, but is playing for when you stir.

 

Made a revolution to my sleep. 

[Onoff]

I can't sleep at night leading up to and during a full moon. Absolutely true. 

[-rick-]

24 minutes ago, mjc55 said:

The other thing that we tend to try and do is watch some TV before bed and we try and make it something light that is watched last thing.  Mostly comedies (we finished re-watching Derry Girls last night) and of late it has been This Country, The Detectorists and The Office.  Obviously this may not be to everyone’s taste but it works for us.

 

While I'm not building I definitely have times when sleep is a problem due to a brain that doesn't want to switch off. Definitely agree that finding something distracting to do in hour or two before bed helps (book, tv, game). While something relaxing can be good, I think being a distraction is the main thing, something that grabs your attention. Also, I find not eating within a few hours of bed and no caffine after about 2:30pm is important too.

[Gone West]

I can't in all honesty say I had a problem getting to sleep when we were self building. I was so knackered everyday, that I went out like a light. The only thing that got me down was the daily grind, day, after day, after day.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

You're going through a really tough time at the moment, aren't you?. ...

 

Thanks for the concern. I appreciate it greatly.

 

I merely wanted to raise this issue in a more general way rather than focus on me. The vast majority of posts on BH are about technical issues. This (and my recent post on Digging Yourself Out of a Hole ) are in my view are just as technical as how to connect plumbing correctly. 

 

If we can I would like us to make this a serious and useful resource for those of us who - silently - are suffering this particular torture.

[BotusBuild]

Notebook and pencil by the bed. Write down what is on your mind. That way it is out and physically recorded.

 

Why not a pen? Makes a mess of the bedside table, bedclothes if you miss the paper 😉

[ToughButterCup]

I've tried that and found that looking for the pencil after I've knocked the damn thing off the bedside table .....

But for you more disciplined folk, thats a good idea.

[SimonD]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

Thanks for the concern. I appreciate it greatly.

 

No worries, that's what we're here for

 

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

I merely wanted to raise this issue in a more general way rather than focus on me. The vast majority of posts on BH are about technical issues. This (and my recent post on Digging Yourself Out of a Hole ) are in my view are just as technical as how to connect plumbing correctly. 

 

If we can I would like us to make this a serious and useful resource for those of us who - silently - are suffering this particular torture.

 

I'm all for that. It's been my life experience in all contexts where I've worked, from global companies to individual athletes that the focus gravitates towards technical and tangible issues. Even when they open up to acknowledge the softer side of things they struggle and try to box them into tangibles like soft skills or psychological techniques. Psychology generally has its problems in that it for much of the time it tries to turn qualitative data in quantitative data, which of course is rubbish and undermines the findings and the field. It's a very difficult area to tackle but has to start within openly sharing experiences so everyone knows they're not alone in theirs.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, SimonD said:

.... It's a very difficult area to tackle but has to start within openly sharing experiences so everyone knows they're not alone in theirs.

 

Exactly.

Hence this thread. And I can see the...

 

"Wot's my fookin' sleeplessness got to do with Buildhub? " argument. 

 

That's the benefit of screen names. Exactly that. You can be just anonymous enough to risk asking 

[SteamyTea]

A few years back I got monitored for sleep apnea. I frequently stop breathing during the night for up to 2 and a half minutes, then wake up briefly, gasping for breath. As I have had it most of my life, it was just normal (like the undiagnosed stomach ulcer I had for 40 years). This made me tired during the day, sometimes, in recent years.

I tried the CPAP gimp mask, never slept a wink, so abandoned that, rapidly.

Got myself a cheap sleep monitor, and tried a few things out i.e. supper times, bed times, exercise, reading, radio etc.

Found that consistent bed times the most effective and sleep pretty well most nights.

Now I am naturally an early riser, always have been, so for me, getting up at 3 or 4 AM is not an issue. I 'plod' in the morning, nothing strenuous before I start work.

 

Very occasionally I have reoccurring nightmares. The usual one is a customer never getting served, this seems a common one in hospitality. The other main one is being a passenger on a bus that is sliding backwards, down a leafy lane (the lane is near Henley, went there recently and it has not changed in 50 years). The odd thing about the bus sliding to our demise is that I calmly open a tin of biscuits and hand them out to the other, faceless, passengers, as a final meal.

Not going to say about the turkey dream, that is just (expletive deleted)ing weird.

 

So basically, get a cheap step monitor that calculated sleep hours as well, see how far from normal you are, that takes a lot of anxiety out of it as there are hard numbers, not just feelings about it.

 

An afternoon nap can help as well, culturally that was the norm for me growing up, but the (expletive deleted)ing British think it is idle, I miss them, but do them when off work (Archers and Afternoon Play time).

 

I am also lucky that at my age, I don't have to get up to wee (can just do it in bed as I live alone). That must be a bummer, maybe something to look forward to in retirement.

 

YouTube has The Sleepy Scientist channel. I like listening to that.

 

The time between 2AM and 4AM is called the Witching Hour. It is normal for us to be awake, and active, then. Get up if needs be, have a look outside the cave, throw a log in the fire, and ponder life, it is what the Witching Hour is for.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, BotusBuild said:

Notebook and pencil by the bed

Now, there is an old saying about the constipated mathematician's cure, he worked it out with pencil and paper.

[Pocster]

When I wake at 1am or whatever now I don’t think about the build . I think how will I get that into Psram . How does three.js talk to other objects . Can I post process a frame without killing the gpu . If I render it at 4k will that kill the fill rate . Wtf is qt about . Please use make files . 
Life is amazing ; even at 1am - (expletive deleted) the build 

Edited 3 hours ago by Pocster

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, Pocster said:

Life is amazing ; even at 1am

At 1:05 AM you are fast asleep after your normal masturbation, while think if me.

[Onoff]

40 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

The time between 2AM and 4AM is called the Witching Hour. It is normal for us to be awake, and active, then. Get up if needs be, have a look outside the cave, throw a log in the fire, and ponder life, it is what the Witching Hour is for.

 

 

I thought it was between midnight and 4am when the "veil" between the living and spirit worlds is thinnest?

 

’Tis now the very witching time of night,
when churchyards yawn, and Hell itself breathes out etc. 

[SteamyTea]

20 minutes ago, Onoff said:

thought it was between midnight and 4am

The darkest hour is right before the dawn.

 

I got up the crack of dawn once, after going up a lane.

Edited 3 hours ago by SteamyTea

[SteamyTea]

Why sleep quality is so important – and so difficult to measure

Sleeping a solid 8 hours isn't the whole story and the quality of your sleep might matter more. But what does sleep quality mean and how can we measure it?

By Sophie Bushwick

20 January 2025

Steven Puetzer/Getty Images

 

How did you sleep last night? Your response might depend on how long you were in bed, how much of that time you spent tossing and turning or whether you feel rested. But it might also depend on whether you exercised today, what your wearable device says, or when you are being asked.

This article is part of special series investigating key questions about sleep. Read more here.

“Everyone has their own definition of sleep quality – and that is the problem,” says sleep researcher Nicole Tang at the University of Warwick, UK.

Though sleep quality and what defines it is a puzzle scientists are still figuring out, we do know that a good night’s rest involves a series of sleep cycles, the distinct succession of phases of brain activity we experience during sleep (see diagram below). And for most of us, each stage of those cycles is necessary to wake up feeling refreshed. The average person experiences four to five complete cycles during a night and disrupting these can come with health consequences, both in the short and long term.

“Poor sleep quality is associated with many adverse physical health outcomes,” says Jean-Philippe Chaput at the University of Ottawa, Canada. Similar to what you can expect from not sleeping enough (see “Why your chronotype is key to figuring out how much sleep you need”), these include a higher risk of cardiovascular disease, stroke, hypertension, type 2 diabetes and weight gain.

Although there is no definitive consensus on what defines sleep quality, researchers and doctors frequently analyse sleep with an electroencephalogram (EEG), which tracks brain activity during sleep cycles, or using actigraphy, where body movement is monitored throughout the night as a measure of wakefulness. Such measurements show that the factors with the greatest impact on what scientists would broadly call sleep quality include how long it takes to doze off, how often you wake up and sleep efficiency – the percentage of time in bed that is actually spent in slumber. “Usually, the case is that not just one parameter predicts sleep quality – it’s a bunch of different parameters added up together,” says Tang.

 

Read more

Snoring isn't just a nuisance, it's dangerous. Why can't we treat it?

 

But how those parameters stack up doesn’t always tally with subjective experience. For example, a 2023 study of 100 people grouped them by sleep quality using EEG measurements, finding that poor sleepers spent less time in the deeper phase of non-rapid eye movement (NREM) sleep compared with better sleepers. However, self-reported measures of sleep quality didn’t match the EEG-based ones. A 2024 analysis of EEG data from more than 250 people over seven nights found that subjective sleep ratings were only moderately related to objective metrics, with sleep efficiency the most important variable in determining whether participants reported better-quality sleep.

 

 

What that means is that your EEG or actigraphy measurement can reflect what looks like a stellar night’s rest, and yet you would still rate your sleep quality as poor, and vice versa. Exactly why that can be the case isn’t entirely clear, but other research backs up the idea that what happens in bed isn’t the only way we determine the quality of the sleep we have had. In a 2022 study, Tang and her colleagues found that participants’ perception of how they slept was influenced by factors experienced the following day, such as their current mood or their level of physical activity. “What you do during the day could affect your evaluation of the sleep the night before,” says Tang.

This frustrating situation led a panel of sleep experts who reviewed the evidence for physiological markers of the “elusive, amorphous, and multi-dimensional construct of sleep quality” to conclude that “ultimately, the determination of ‘quality sleep’ remains largely subjective and inconsistently quantifiable by current measures”.

That sleep quality is so difficult to assess objectively should give us pause when considering data from wearables that provide a sleep quality score. Many of these are based on measurements, such as heart rate or movement that can accurately determine whether you are asleep, but the makers of these gadgets typically don’t explain how these factors are weighted to determine the final output. Some experts caution against giving too much importance to these scores, as they can be unreliable and increase anxiety around sleep.

 

How to get a better night's sleep by hacking your brainwaves

Wearable technology that stimulates the brain to make you sleep more deeply promises to revolutionise your slumber – can it really lead to a better night’s rest?

 

Even if we can’t always accurately assess our sleep quality, there are things we can do to attempt to get a better night’s sleep – for example, not drinking. Alcohol may help you nod off and increase the amount of deep NREM sleep in the first half of the night, but it triggers wakefulness in the second half and impairs rapid eye movement sleep. Maintaining a regular sleep schedule and good sleep hygiene habits will also help.

Of course, some sleep fragmentation is unavoidable – tending to a crying baby, nighttime visits to the toilet – and circumstances change over your lifetime. So avoid fretting about one night’s interrupted sleep: precisely because sleep quality is so subjective, if you start feeling anxious about it, you may wake up thinking your night went even worse than it did.

This article is part of a special series investigating key questions about sleep.

Why your chronotype is key to figuring out how much sleep you need

The surprising relationship between your microbiome and sleeping well

How best to catch up on rest and pay off your sleep debt

How to shift your circadian clock to beat your jet lag

What nine sleep researchers do to get their best night’s rest

Topics:

• mental health/
• sleep/
• health/
• sleep loss

 

[Roger440]

I coped with it by not building a house!

 

Though sleeping is one thing i dont have a problem doing. Waking up on the other hand...........................

 

All that said, im gearing up for a whole house refurb in 9 months, probably in 2028. Starting to plan for that, and its a right bugger, because everything is interlinked. And expensive. So lots of thought required. 

 

Maybe i have it yet to come?

[DownSouth]

@ToughButterCup your post really resonated. It’s 15 years since I worked nights. 3am was always the killer, lowest point on the circadian rhythm, the witching hour. 
 

Now we seem to take it in turns to wake between 1&3, then find it impossible to get back to sleep. We’ve just done a 22 hour weekend on top of full time jobs during the week, so it’s not because we’re not tired. There’s just no switching off. It’s the daytime grumpiness that’s so hard to deal with, both being grumpy and coping with someone else who’s grumpy too.