Why we need "Net zero"

[Beelbeebub]

12 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

You could add minor events like the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Sent gas prices through the roof. Building big nuclear generator, which the tax payer seems to be paying for and also adding to electric bills

That's the point. The high price of electricity is being blamed, by some, on the increace in renewables capacity simply because renewables capacity is now higher than it was and prices are now higher than they were. 

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

NO.

 

It's the fact that the ridiculous energy market we are stuck with, prices ALL electricity at the cost of the most expensive which is gas.  So even though from that graph gas provides less than 40% of our energy all of it is priced as if it were all from gas.

 

We need a radical change to the energy market to stop this nonsense.  Otherwise the promise of "electricity will only get cheaper with more renewables" will only happen when renewables reaches 100% and the last gas power station closes down.

 

We are being conned / ripped off and most people are too blinkered to even notice this.

My point. 

 

At least with renewables we have the option of an alternative pricing structure to pass the benefit of the lower cost on to consumers (whether we do that is in thr lap of politicians and their lobbyists.... so I'm not holding my breath) 

 

But the point is that without renewables we will have no choice at all. 

 

Which makes the lobbyists job easier - so they put theor effort into slowing renewables. 

 

Far easier to prevent renewables from being built than to argue why a politician shouldn't take advantage of the cheaper power. 

[SteamyTea]

36 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Is the increacing share of renewables to blame for the Uk's high electricity prices

 

37 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Or is it that electricity prices track gas prices and gas has become more expensive

Correlation is not causation.

Electricity prices are set by the highest priced, deliverable, energy, that is part of the half hour auctions.  This is called the marginal price (I know you know all this).

The high price is caused by this marginal pricing system.

It would be much better if, for any given half hour period, that the mean auction price, based of weighted averages, was paid.  That would get rid of those ridiculous price spikes, and reduce the potential losses at the lower end, I think.  May try and model it later.

[Beelbeebub]

55 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Correlation is not causation.

Electricity prices are set by the highest priced, deliverable, energy, that is part of the half hour auctions.  This is called the marginal price (I know you know all this).

The high price is caused by this marginal pricing system.

It would be much better if, for any given half hour period, that the mean auction price, based of weighted averages, was paid.  That would get rid of those ridiculous price spikes, and reduce the potential losses at the lower end, I think.  May try and model it later.

Yes, thr marginal pricing system is the reason our electricity prices track gas. 

 

The fact this is true means that the accusation that higher electricity prices we pay now are due to higher renwable capacity cannot be correct.

[ProDave]

57 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

The fact this is true means that the accusation that higher electricity prices we pay now are due to higher renwable capacity cannot be correct.

And neither is the claim that prices will come down as we have more renewable capacity.  That has also been proved to be incorrect.  It is a great shame it is our MP's that are still telling us these untruths.

[SteamyTea]

Average domestic household energy bills (~£1750) are still around 5% of average household earnings (~£36,700).

 

[ProDave]

22 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Average domestic household energy bills (~£1750) are still around 5% of average household earnings (~£36,700).

 

And my council tax is £1000 more than that, but unlike energy bills, I can't reduce it by switching "supplier" or making improvements to my house.

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, ProDave said:

council tax

This is about energy prices, not council tax.

 

 

If you want to get things changed, go into politics.

[saveasteading]

50 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If you want to get things changed, go into politics

Council meetings are open to the public. Parish, town, district, county, national.

The meetings themselves may be tedious, and for the councillors too, but you learn and see that some councillors are there for party or their own purposes, and others are trying to make things fairer.... and up against the party machines.

Also some get constant grief from the voters, whatever they do.

 

I recommend going along to a committee that is of interest.. budget,  planning, whatever.

 

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

And neither is the claim that prices will come down as we have more renewable capacity.  That has also been proved to be incorrect.  It is a great shame it is our MP's that are still telling us these untruths.

But as has been pointed out continually - the prices remain pegged to gas because of the auction structure. 

 

If we had a magic electric generator that produced 25GW 24h a day for a penny year, that would provide nearly 70% of the UK annual electric demand for 1p yet the wholesale price of electricity would have remained the same under the auctions system and people would be claiming that magic electric generators increaced our bills. 

 

We do need to come up with a new market mechanism that allows the savings of cheaper generation to be passed on to consumers whilst also maintain investment and reliability. 

 

That is a separate issue from "Net zero". 

 

But fundamental to coming up with that solution *is having the cheaper generation capacity in the first place*