Bloody tired of being confused. What heating system to fit ?

[JohnMo]

13 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

By smaller cylinder, you mean a smaller UVC than you might otherwise install?

 

Heat pump cylinders are generally big because they store water at 45 to 50. A typical direct cylinder could just as easily be at 70 degs, so effectively a much smaller cylinder holds just as much energy.

[Adrian Walker]

2 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

@Adrian Walker Also, i believe that at below 3 i would be required to fit MVHR. It is a shame but just really not got the space. I will have to have have 6 extractors for all the wet areas. I will have to have a look and consider what my options are on that front.

If you want a healthy & happy home you should have MVHR. It doesn’t take a lot of room, you can self install and will save on your heating bills. 

[Mike]

3 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

i believe that at below 3 i would be required to fit MVHR. It is a shame but just really not got the space.

No space in a 1,750 square foot house? I'm not the only one that's fitted one in an apartment a fraction of that size; they really aren't that big. Could go on the wall or ceiling of the laundry room, or study next the hot water tank, or the kitchen, or the largish entrance hall, or the WC...

[torre]

At what stage are you planning to market the build? I'm wondering if there's any scenario where you might sell off plan and let the buyer choose the heating and internals? You'd also get some validation of the likely sale value. Or any other scenario that would let you build both side by side as there must be economies to be made. 

Ideally you'd keep both builds as similar as possible but only your own will qualify for a grant which does complicate things. What do estate agents say about ashp versus gas boiler? 

[SimonD]

59 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 its more likely, than not, you will get a "not good" job. Which is what seems to be happening in the real world.

 

No, this is a scewed perspective based upon microcosms that highlight poor installations. Last year there were probably around 60,000 heat pumps installed, for arguments sake. Do you have statistics that show that the majority of these installations were not good jobs? That you're more likely than not to get a bad job?

 

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

For mine doing a "johnmo" as it were and as suggested on this thread, you have a ASHP, a UVC, some sort of wiring/control center, some UFH pipe and some rads. I couldnt get that close to £11k in materials even if i tried.

 

Have you run your own figures?

 

Lets take a pretty run of the mill materials list for a retrofit using some publicly available prices at Midsummer Wholesale for the heat pump and other online suppliers for other stuff:

 

Vaillant Aerotherm + 7kW - £4724.24

Vaillant controls - VR70, SensoComfort plus internet gateway - £633.41

Telford UCV 250l- £1225.70

50 liter volumiser - est. £350 (not Misummer who want £455 for a 25l volumiser)

Installation kit - anti vibration feet, insulated flexi pipes, isolation valves, mag filter/strainer - £270

External pipe trunking (lets say 5m length) with bends and connectors etc. - £250

External Pipe insulation - £14/m x 10 external + sealant/glue & tape - £190

Internal pipe insulation for uvc and heating primaries etc.  - £65

Anti-freeze valves - £200

Type b rcd - £180

Other electrical - cable (power and control), mcb, small enclosures, junction boxes, 2 x kwh meters,32A 4-pole isolator, trunking - £360

3 bog standard radiators - £300

2 nice column radiators for the living room and kitchen - £700

5 x good quality radiator valves - £150

Copper pipe mix of 28/22/15mm - £250

Press fit pipe fittings - £ 250

Pipe clips - £50

3-port diverter valve - £110

Expansion vessel kits x 2 heating and potable - £150

 

This comes to a grand total of £10408.35 and there are other bits and bobs I can't be bothered to list - like system cleaner/biocide/inhibitor and all those sorts of consumables. No UFH pipe or manifolds here either. No long primaries to house or through it. And this doesn't include materials for constructing a base.

 

This represents a fairly small job for a reasonably efficient heating system. Yes, I can probably get some discount on the uvc and heat pump, but I'm sure this gives you a good illustration of what it actually costs to buy materials for an installation.

[Iceverge]

36 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 

No, this is a scewed perspective based upon microcosms that highlight poor installations. Last year there were probably around 60,000 heat pumps installed, for arguments sake. Do you have statistics that show that the majority of these installations were not good jobs? That you're more likely than not to get a bad job?

 

 

Have you run your own figures?

 

Lets take a pretty run of the mill materials list for a retrofit using some publicly available prices at Midsummer Wholesale for the heat pump and other online suppliers for other stuff:

 

Vaillant Aerotherm + 7kW - £4724.24

Vaillant controls - VR70, SensoComfort plus internet gateway - £633.41

Telford UCV 250l- £1225.70

50 liter volumiser - est. £350 (not Misummer who want £455 for a 25l volumiser)

Installation kit - anti vibration feet, insulated flexi pipes, isolation valves, mag filter/strainer - £270

External pipe trunking (lets say 5m length) with bends and connectors etc. - £250

External Pipe insulation - £14/m x 10 external + sealant/glue & tape - £190

Internal pipe insulation for uvc and heating primaries etc.  - £65

Anti-freeze valves - £200

Type b rcd - £180

Other electrical - cable (power and control), mcb, small enclosures, junction boxes, 2 x kwh meters,32A 4-pole isolator, trunking - £360

3 bog standard radiators - £300

2 nice column radiators for the living room and kitchen - £700

5 x good quality radiator valves - £150

Copper pipe mix of 28/22/15mm - £250

Press fit pipe fittings - £ 250

Pipe clips - £50

3-port diverter valve - £110

Expansion vessel kits x 2 heating and potable - £150

 

This comes to a grand total of £10408.35 and there are other bits and bobs I can't be bothered to list - like system cleaner/biocide/inhibitor and all those sorts of consumables. No UFH pipe or manifolds here either. No long primaries to house or through it. And this doesn't include materials for constructing a base.

 

This represents a fairly small job for a reasonably efficient heating system. Yes, I can probably get some discount on the uvc and heat pump, but I'm sure this gives you a good illustration of what it actually costs to buy materials for an installation.

 

I'm feeling some what validated in my choice to avoid central heating entirely. 

 

 

 

 

[Oz07]

13 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

@Oz07 gas is already on site.

No brainer then I'd have thought. What's cheaper a system boiler or ashp? What does your estate agent think buyers would prefer?

[Big Jimbo]

I will have a talk to the estate agents today.

I had a talk yesterday with a very well known guy in the industry who has a comprehensive understanding of heat pumps. For a fee he will take a look at my plans, do heat loss calcs from my drawings, and specs, to confirm my results. He will also design the system for me. If he cant fitit due to distance, i will atleast have a design that would enable me to have it fitted, with confidence, by a plumber that i know.

I do think that a modern house, built with a bit of quality control (me) , and a relitively low heat loss (sub 5) is a great candidate for ASHP. I just want it done right first time, and for it to work with no problem. A bit like a gas boiler install. I just need to step away from my old flat cap, 63 year old self, and perhaps embrace the new. (not that ASHP systems are new). Just new to me who has always had an oversized gas boiler in all of the houses that i have ever lived in.

[ToughButterCup]

36 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

...

If he cant fit it due to distance, i will at least have a design that would enable me to have it fitted, with confidence, by a plumber

...

 

And @Big Jimbo, more importantly than that, you will have solved the Conflict Of Interest problem  : the person fitting it, won't have identified and designed the answer to the problem.

 

Thats exactly what should happen - far more often than it does.

[Roger440]

9 hours ago, SimonD said:

 

No, this is a scewed perspective based upon microcosms that highlight poor installations. Last year there were probably around 60,000 heat pumps installed, for arguments sake. Do you have statistics that show that the majority of these installations were not good jobs? That you're more likely than not to get a bad job?

 

 

Have you run your own figures?

 

Lets take a pretty run of the mill materials list for a retrofit using some publicly available prices at Midsummer Wholesale for the heat pump and other online suppliers for other stuff:

 

Vaillant Aerotherm + 7kW - £4724.24

Vaillant controls - VR70, SensoComfort plus internet gateway - £633.41

Telford UCV 250l- £1225.70

50 liter volumiser - est. £350 (not Misummer who want £455 for a 25l volumiser)

Installation kit - anti vibration feet, insulated flexi pipes, isolation valves, mag filter/strainer - £270

External pipe trunking (lets say 5m length) with bends and connectors etc. - £250

External Pipe insulation - £14/m x 10 external + sealant/glue & tape - £190

Internal pipe insulation for uvc and heating primaries etc.  - £65

Anti-freeze valves - £200

Type b rcd - £180

Other electrical - cable (power and control), mcb, small enclosures, junction boxes, 2 x kwh meters,32A 4-pole isolator, trunking - £360

3 bog standard radiators - £300

2 nice column radiators for the living room and kitchen - £700

5 x good quality radiator valves - £150

Copper pipe mix of 28/22/15mm - £250

Press fit pipe fittings - £ 250

Pipe clips - £50

3-port diverter valve - £110

Expansion vessel kits x 2 heating and potable - £150

 

This comes to a grand total of £10408.35 and there are other bits and bobs I can't be bothered to list - like system cleaner/biocide/inhibitor and all those sorts of consumables. No UFH pipe or manifolds here either. No long primaries to house or through it. And this doesn't include materials for constructing a base.

 

This represents a fairly small job for a reasonably efficient heating system. Yes, I can probably get some discount on the uvc and heat pump, but I'm sure this gives you a good illustration of what it actually costs to buy materials for an installation.

 

As ive mentioned before, i know a handful of people with heat pumps. None are happy. All are either cold, of finding it much more expensive to keep war,. Yes, that doesnt constitute a decent sample, i get that. Maybe just a co-incidence?

 

That said, i recently met someone who is happy. But he is a heat pump installer, so i dont really count that.

 

Thanks for the breakdown on cost. The most obvious thing is the cost of the pump and cylinder seem expensive compared to what i found and priced up. About double in fact. Im sure theres a reason you are using these specific ones ones though.

 

When i strip and refurbish the house, i will need to significantly reconfigure the heating, and intended to make it heat pump "ready". Might need to revisit if this is the sort of cost of materials. Re-visit as in simplify. Or not bother.

 

Anyway, appreciate you taking the time.

[Roger440]

8 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

I'm feeling some what validated in my choice to avoid central heating entirely. 

 

 

 

 

 

Be great if i could.

[SimonD]

8 hours ago, Iceverge said:

I'm feeling some what validated in my choice to avoid central heating entirely. 

 

Yeah, a dream if you can get away with.

 

I'm just hoping those figures can go some way to dispelling the myth that is perpetuated even here on BH that a heat pump installation is just a heat pump, unvented cylinder and 2 pipes and that installers are all ripping their customers off because of the grant - if anything, it's going into the manufacturing/distribution/wholesale/services side, each one taking their slice of the pie. It should also illustrate that the difference between a heat pump and gas boiler is not just the marginal cost of the boiler itself but also the ancillaries like system controller and electrical installation - but on a new build this should not add anything significant to the overall costs of electrical installation. If you are doing a newbuild and you are doing heating, then there is very little difference between the cost of emitter and pipe installation.

 

With an energy efficient build, the unit price difference between a low output heat pump and a premium boiler with long warranty should only be in the order of £1-1.5k and about £3-500 for a standard v heat pump cylinder.

 

2 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

an oversized gas boiler in all of the houses that i have ever lived in.

 

If you do end up going down the route of a gas boiler in this instance, then the 11kW Viessmann 100-W or 200-W are ideal candidates as they modulate well, can be installed on 4-pipe priority hot water setups, saving a lot of time during installation.  

[SimonD]

24 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Im sure theres a reason you are using these specific ones ones though.

 

Yes, Vaillant seems to currently be the go to standard bearer of heat pumps at the moment, whether rightly or wrongly. You won't get a 7kW Vaillant for half the price. Being in the trade, I may be able to get £1k off that price for me through a wholesaler only dealing with trade, but as with any business I have to have a margin on this and I have to negotiate for every job. So the price I'm putting here is more likely what you would pay, even if you buy direct off a website as in these case in retrofit, you'd have to pay VAT and all those prices above are ex VAT. You can get cheaper units but often they come with short warranties unless you're one of the manufacturer's 'pro' installers where you can then give up to 10 years in some cases - that process comes with its price too. Given the shopping list above, you can probably imagine the time it takes me to order and co-ordinate delivery of all these things as a one man band - I have to cover my time somehow to maintain a viable business. 

 

35 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Might need to revisit if this is the sort of cost of materials

 

Yes, go through your costs very carefully before committing - it's amazing what is commonly overlooked by those who are not in the trade and then comes as a nasty surprise.

[Bornagain]

42 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

As ive mentioned before, i know a handful of people with heat pumps. None are happy. All are either cold, of finding it much more expensive to keep war,. Yes, that doesnt constitute a decent sample, i get that. Maybe just a co-incidence?

 

That said, i recently met someone who is happy. But he is a heat pump installer, so i dont really count that.

 

Thanks for the breakdown on cost. The most obvious thing is the cost of the pump and cylinder seem expensive compared to what i found and priced up. About double in fact. Im sure theres a reason you are using these specific ones ones though.

 

When i strip and refurbish the house, i will need to significantly reconfigure the heating, and intended to make it heat pump "ready". Might need to revisit if this is the sort of cost of materials. Re-visit as in simplify. Or not bother.

 

Anyway, appreciate you taking the time.

We live in our 200m2 self build that we built in 2011, it’s ICF with triple glazing and all the usual bells and whistles.

 

For the first 14 yrs we heated the downstairs UFH using E7 electricity,  last September we had a Vaillant 5kw ASHP fitted. We have no heating upstairs.

It runs for 7 hrs per night on E7 electricity, the house is maintained in around 20.5-21 c downstairs and it’s around 19c in the bedrooms.

 

On the really cold days a week or so ago when the temperature was less than zero all day and as low as -8c at night we ran the heat pump during the day using power generated by the PV system as it was very sunny.

 

The annual operating cost is next to nothing, the annual maintenance will cost more than the electricity.

 

The installation cost the BUS grant and we had to pay about £900 on top, we used a local(ish) firm recommend by Vaillant who are also Heat Geek Elite installers.

 

We couldn’t be happier with our install, and I can’t really see how it could work any better - it does exactly what it says on the tin.