Asking builder for steelwork invoice?

[NCXo82ike]

Morning all. Just wondering if it's reasonable to ask our builder to provide invoices from their steel fabricators. 

 

The builders have been transparent about finances. Costs have overall been reasonable for the project we're doing. 

For complex timescales & planning reasons we booked them in off a quote that excluded steelwork.

 

So it was a bit of a shock when we got the quote for £28k steelwork and £10k planning &installation (each excluding VAT).

This is for a mid-terrace wraparound plus loft conversion with all chimneys taken out and supported at roof level. Goalposts downstairs for large glazing and a picture frame for the wraparound etc.

After the initial shock, it seems like this is reasonable, and of course there has to be a profit margin for the builder.

I'm still inclined to trust but verify with it being so much money.

 

What are your thoughts on the cost, and on asking to see the invoice?

[bmj1]

I would ask for a copy of the quote and if I think it's high I would tender it out to a couple of others.

[JohnMo]

Ask them 3 quotes

[NCXo82ike]

Thanks for such quick replies.

 

To clarify the works are already underway, all sticking to the original quote other than what are obvious extras.

 

The builders ordered the steels from their usual fabricators. Several are already installed. So we're basically stuck with whatever the cost is. Asking for the invoice is basically peace of mind that we're not being overcharged. I don't know if that's a usual thing to do, or if the builders would take offense at this and we'd upset a good relationship.

 

Appreciate it would have been much better to have this agreed before work started but this would have lead to at least 6 months of delay.

[Redbeard]

If you have already instructed the builder to proceed with the works based on the price given then you have a contract *at that price* and I would argue it's too late. Yes, it sounds like it 'stings', but I think the 'price-change ship' has sailed. Yes, the builder could provide the fabricator's quote but you have a contract at the price you refer to. It will loom big for a while and then something else will crop up, and it will seem 'small beer', possibly while you are sitting in your new extension savouring a small beer...

[NCXo82ike]

1 hour ago, Redbeard said:

If you have already instructed the builder to proceed with the works based on the price given then you have a contract *at that price* and I would argue it's too late. Yes, it sounds like it 'stings', but I think the 'price-change ship' has sailed. Yes, the builder could provide the fabricator's quote but you have a contract at the price you refer to. It will loom big for a while and then something else will crop up, and it will seem 'small beer', possibly while you are sitting in your new extension savouring a small beer...

This was a very nice sense check, thank you!

[markc]

Builder will have asked fabricator for a quote so you could ask to see it,  remember nothing wrong with builder adding his cut, probably 20% because it’s not a simply buy in and there would have been some messing about.

assuming you get the quote (remember you cannot really ask for any discount etc now) send it over and I will take a look, peace of mind rather than anything else.

[Spinny]

Other options could be...

 

1. Simply ask for a breakdown of the steel cost - this should be perfectly possible as the builder/specifier will have had to create an itemised list in order to price and order it.

 

2. Make a list of the steelwork length by length, then compare with steel prices freely available on the internet. You can easily find prices for say steel box sections of certain dimensions and steel thickness, or standard RSJ sizes etc. That way you can estimate roughly what the steel might cost if bought direct, then compare with what you are paying.  If there is a big difference ask why.

 

3. Pay a QS to come on site and do option 2 for you. Can be done silently out-of-hours, or introduced as someone you are using to give you some advice on the work.

 

In my single experience a builder can generally stick closely to the itemised contract quote, but when it comes to additions, changes, estimates only - they can still play games to enhance profit. Once they have knocked seven bells out of your property they have you by the short and curlies and some know it. 

 

I think it is ALWAYS a mistake not to institute very tight control from the start. Like many we started with trust, paid invoices in full promptly, paid for extras where they occurred. Happily paid the 100% of every line item the builder always invoiced for etc. Over time the number and value of all deviations from the contract can grow like topsy. And if things go wrong as they did for us when the builder abandoned site it becomes a problem. If something isn't complete - don't pay for it. Making openings and making good paid in full ? Mistake - it hasn't been made good yet, so don't pay for that part. Having a heating system fitted - don't pay for it until it is actually working - you are not buying a boiler screwed to the wall - you are buying a working system etc. 

 

Builders know the game. There is never anything wrong with politely reminding them they are being held to fair account.

 

A third party can be invaluable - some builders will ignore the customer on the basis they by definition 'know nothing' and 'have no building credentials' so their comments are worthless. As soon as a qualified structural engineer, QS, or PM appears the 'attitude' can suddenly change.

 

Not trying to say all builders are dodgy or bad, must be lots of excellent ones, but it is important to have a balanced relationship - £38k+VAT is a lot of anyone's money.

 

[Alan Ambrose]

Yeah ask and get a QS to calculate for comparison. The latter should cost v. little if you give them a schedule of the bits. Or, get a steel shop to give you a quote from the schedule - offer to pay them for that maybe?

[Temp]

Ask for alternative quotes.

 

Presumably this project doesn't qualify for reduced VAT? Eg it's not been empty for years? 

[torre]

There are lots of variables re section sizes etc but as a single point of reference, last year our goalpost frame approx 3m x 6m was around 2k fabricated (posts were UC 203 x 46).

 

For a sum as large as £28k I'd definitely want some detail on cost breakdown but yours was quite a long list and I can see there's plenty of installation effort there.

[Gus Potter]

13 hours ago, NCXo82ike said:

Morning all. Just wondering if it's reasonable to ask our builder to provide invoices from their steel fabricators. 

 

The builders have been transparent about finances. Costs have overall been reasonable for the project we're doing. 

For complex timescales & planning reasons we booked them in off a quote that excluded steelwork.

 

So it was a bit of a shock when we got the quote for £28k steelwork and £10k planning &installation (each excluding VAT).

This is for a mid-terrace wraparound plus loft conversion with all chimneys taken out and supported at roof level. Goalposts downstairs for large glazing and a picture frame for the wraparound etc.

After the initial shock, it seems like this is reasonable, and of course there has to be a profit margin for the builder.

I'm still inclined to trust but verify with it being so much money.

 

What are your thoughts on the cost, and on asking to see the invoice?

Ah, I'm going to take wide view on this, a bit brutal at times but I've put my claims hat on and explore if you have grounds for pushing back.

 

I'm going to make some assumptions, but these you can explore yourself / mull over.

 

First thing is I'm assuming you are a domestic Client, you have an element of protection under the consumer protection act. If your builder has worded their contract unfairly then they can be a bit stuffed as the law in the UK is more supportive than not. 

 

Next. Did your drawings show an opening with some steel? As you are a domestic Client and probably don't have; detailed drawings, a QS, probably not a recognised building contract then you still have a bit of protection as again..  your are a domestic Client. There is an argument in law that says.. as a domestic Client you can reasonably expect that a competant builder should be able to account for all the work even if it's not shown on the drawings. 

 

I do this as a day job (SE / designer and while we can be nice we don't take pish from folk when they step over the mark) and that includes a clause that says.. not every bit of (down to the last nails etc) the design is shown in detail. But even if that clause is not there you still have protection! 

 

OK that's the legal kind of bit. But how to you go about ascertaining if the builder has charged you too much?

 

The steel cost may vary a bit but the big costs lies in how you tie the steels back to the building and any foundations below.. these bits can be very labour intensive and that is where the real cost lies. This cost can far outweigh an increase in steel weight. 

 

To dispute this you need to be able to look at these ancilliary bits and compare with what it would be a reasonable expectation from a competant builder. I'm just letting you know what has worked for me in the past when representing Clients when questioning builders costs. 

 

13 hours ago, NCXo82ike said:

So it was a bit of a shock when we got the quote for £28k steelwork and £10k planning &installation (each excluding VAT).

Now that is a lot of money when you look at the way it's presented! For all DIY folk.. the amount of money is relative in my book, I started out in life a bit skint so every pound was a prisoner. 

 

So I wonder is ( £28k + 10k ) plus vat in the grand scheme of things something you can live with or is it really going to hurt you?

 

Do you feel you are getting ripped off? or do you feel that your builder in general has done a good job.. there is good will on all sides and it might not be worth not rocking the boat? 

 

Now is the time to maybe say to your builder.. and tie them down to their guarantee for the work. There are a number of ways of skinning this cat!

 

If you feel you are getting ripped off then the first thing is to ask.. how much by and how do you go about getting a reduction in the invoice? 

 

Well, you have to be brutal if you can. Get them to finish as much as they can, for the least payment, then  argue about the final payment. There are no friends in the desert! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Gus Potter

[Nickfromwales]

13 hours ago, NCXo82ike said:

Appreciate it would have been much better to have this agreed before work started but this would have lead to at least 6 months of delay.

Then on your own head be it. 
 

Cant have your cake and eat it, in a nutshell. 
 

If they’re £10k over the uk national average then its £10k / 180 days of delay.

 

I think you’re spilling hairs personally, after the horse has bolted, after accepting costs incoming; those which you took as acceptable as being based on trust and convenience. 

[Gus Potter]

9 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

I think you’re spilling hairs personally,

Nick. I made my last post as I got a feeling that something was not right, it smells bad to me. I think why did NCX.. come on BH in the first place with some random generated name? 

 

Yes, we have not seen the drawings, the steelwork may be a small element. 

 

14 hours ago, NCXo82ike said:

Morning all.

So here is a thing. Say we can save NCX five grand or potentially a lot more. and then say.. you got lots of help on BH so make a donation of 20%..