Looks like the party is over....

[JamesPa]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

Nor should we be encouraging the use of resistive heating (Fischer should be banned from operating in the UK).

 

That was my initial reaction but,  with the right management, they may be a sensible solution for small properties/flats where a heat pump isnt a practical solution.  Im thinking dense newbuild flats, which probably have a demand sub 2kW.

 

Our electricity is already on average lower carbon per kWh than gas and that can only get better still, if heat batteries are filled so far as possible when the grid is greenest then not such a silly idea.

 

So I wouldn't rule out the possibility that they have a niche role to play. 

[JamesPa]

4 hours ago, Oz07 said:

15 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

The physics behind heating system is, at worse, so low that a 12 year old probably learns it at school.

 

Yet half the installers can't manage it. 

The they should be compelled to go back to school as a condition of continuing practice, or confined to pipe bending and soldering duties only under the direct supervision of someone who can manage it (and have their pay adjusted accordingly).  The physics is mostly the same whether its a heat pump or a boiler, and a basic understanding is essential to efficient system design and maintenance and to giving professional advice to customers.  

 

In many jobs CPD is compulsory, but seemingly not in the construction industry.  Why do we tolerate this level of ignorance?

Edited yesterday at 11:14 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

Resistive heating via a storage heater, is a good solution for many properties, especially if the electric price drops. 

 

A passivhaus with low heating energy use a simple solution.

[ProDave]

3 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Resistive heating via a storage heater, is a good solution for many properties, especially if the electric price drops. 

 

A passivhaus with low heating energy use a simple solution.

Except with the closing of the RDS service and E7 meters replaced by smart meters, judging by the number of issues issues we hear about, the switching and metering or off peak tarrifs is another bit of what should be simple technology that now does not work reliable probably due to incompetence.

[ProDave]

Also they are coming after your FIT's (solar PV for ealry adopters) by reducing the measure that determines future increases.

[Dillsue]

1 hour ago, -rick- said:

We are not far away from not needing gas in summer months. Green power generation is not far away already, but the power lines to transport it are the bottleneck. 

A quick glance at gridwatch for this summer says we're a long way off not needing gas in the summer so best dialling down AC for a good while.

 

NESO say for 2024 we had 37% green generation- 30% wind, 5% solar and 2% hydro. 

[Dillsue]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Also they are coming after your FIT's (solar PV for ealry adopters) by reducing the measure that determines future increases.

Have you got a link to where you've heard that?

[ProDave]

10 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

Have you got a link to where you've heard that?

 

[JohnMo]

20 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Except with the closing of the RDS service and E7 meters replaced by smart meters

Just run a timer. Octopus offer a similar tariff to cosy for storage heaters. Nothing wrong with a smart meter, saving me a fortune now it's up and running.

 

22 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Also they are coming after your FIT's (solar PV for ealry adopters) by reducing the measure that determines future increases.

My heart bleeds at the 75p per kWh generated whether exported or used. Madness they get that much.

 

 

[-rick-]

29 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

A quick glance at gridwatch for this summer says we're a long way off not needing gas in the summer so best dialling down AC for a good while.

 

NESO say for 2024 we had 37% green generation- 30% wind, 5% solar and 2% hydro. 

 

I don't have good data to hand to point to (don't have time to find it now) but the sources I was following were talking about how we were still burning a lot of gas during the summer, while also exporting a lot of excess. The gas was being burnt as a lot of renewables don't have grid forming/peaker capability. This is apparently being fixed by changing inverter programming and the deployment of more batteries (to replace a lot of peaker use). IIRC the expectation was that in 26/27 it would be a lot more possible to shutdown the gas plants rather than exporting excess. A lot more wind capacity is coming on-line over the next few years, same with solar.

 

Even if opening BUS up to AC systems generates massive demand, I doubt the industry has enough capacity to install quantities of cooling over the next few years that would show up in national energy use stats. By the time it does a huge amount more wind/solar will come online.

 

Thinking aloud, I wouldn't be surprised if easing deployment of A2A systems with cooling doesn't motivate a lot of people to install solar with A2A in a way that doesn't happen with A2W (without cooling). The economic case for solar to offset cooling energy use is extremely strong compared to solar to offset heating energy use.

[JamesPa]

32 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Just run a timer. Octopus offer a similar tariff to cosy for storage heaters. Nothing wrong with a smart meter, saving me a fortune now it's up and running.

 

My heart bleeds at the 75p per kWh generated whether exported or used. Madness they get that much.

 

 

SOFAIK its just a change to index linking to CPI (instead of RPI).  

 

FIT contracts are contracts and the Government cant change them (or any other contract) unless they were to pass specific legislation to do so (or the counterparty agrees).  They are most unlikely to do this because undermining the reliability of government contracts would crash the economy.  The video says its happening quietly, which couldn't possibly be the case if legislation were being passed.  So they will only do what the people who receive the FITS signed up for!   

 

I believe the contracts said 'inflation', thus leaving open which measure of inflation.  If the beneficiaries didn't like the ambiguity at the time, they didn't have to sign up!   But guess what, they did, because it was so lucrative!  Like @johnmo my heart bleeds (full disclosure I do get FIT albeit only at about 25p, jumped too late!).

 

Sorry but the graphic is just demonising for unjustified and unjustifiable political or commercial gain.

Edited yesterday at 12:16 by JamesPa

[Nestor]

2 options, CPI or temporary freeze until CPI aligns with RPI, mid 2030's.

Over 800,000 homes had FiT installations.

Email address:

RO@energysecurity.gov.uk

 

Payback calculations below, November 2011.

 

 

[Dillsue]

From the OFGEM guidance for FIT generators, section 5.4-

 

"Generation and export tariffs are also adjusted by the percentage increase or 
decrease in the Retail Price Index (RPI) over the 12-month period ending on 31 
December of the previous year every April, in accordance with FIT legislation."

 

The document is guidance but it does say that the statement is in accordance with FIT legislation??

 

With the advent of PV diverters and battery storage I could see them varying the deemed export % rate which I beleive the secretary of state can change within the legislation but that likely amounts to peanuts in the grand scale of the countries finances??

[sharpener]

42 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

With the advent of PV diverters and battery storage I could see them varying the deemed export % rate which I beleive the secretary of state can change within the legislation but that likely amounts to peanuts in the grand scale of the countries finances??

 

Yes, a few pence only. I elected to move off the deemed export regime when Octopus finally installed a smart meter as it was better to move to metered exports.  (Including switching to Cosy and opening an export account they treated this as four separate transactions which took months. I raised a formal complaint about the time it was taking on 14 July 2024 and it was resolved - with £125 compensation - on 14 Nov.)

[Beelbeebub]

5 hours ago, JamesPa said:

That was my initial reaction but,  with the right management, they may be a sensible solution for small properties/flats where a heat pump isnt a practical solution.  Im thinking dense newbuild flats, which probably have a demand sub 2kW.

There are some HP systems that are entirely self contained and just require a pair of 150mm inlet/outlet ducts. The unit itself isn't much bigger than a storage heater. 

 

They are more expensive than a 2kw panel heater but they do have much lower power requirements. 

 

They could be integrated with a ventilation system to provide fresh air at the same time. 

 

We really should be looking to removenresitive heating from all domestic space heating requirements. 

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

They could be integrated with a ventilation system to provide fresh air at the same time. 

Some have a option to add ventilation and air mixing to manage humidity. More to stop air drying out too much, rather than ventilation.

[Beelbeebub]

6 hours ago, -rick- said:

Terrible idea. That just leads to UK specific models that cost twice as much as as the EU model for less features.

 

I wondered if having some sort of grant availible for A2A models as long as they have the minimum (maximum?) cooling temp firmware locked at (say) 26C.  It should be a fairly simple software change - they already have different firmwares (or at least options) for things like language, units etc. 

 

The grant to make A2A really affordable doesn't need to be much maybe a cash back voucher for the customer or something. 

 

Though, to be honest just making the planning and red tape around A2A easier would help - if thry could get a refrigerant that didn't require an f-gas cert (and wasn't flammable or toxic) so thry could be diy'd it would be a massive step forward 

[Beelbeebub]

8 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Some have a option to add ventilation and air mixing to manage humidity. More to stop air drying out too much, rather than ventilation.

There was a mhrv system that used a heat pump instead of the heat exchanger and could provide a kw or so of heating. 

 

Can't remember the name. 

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

There was a mhrv system that used a heat pump instead of the heat exchanger and could provide a kw or so of heating. 

 

Can't remember the name

Quite a few about now.

Some can be had with a DHW system included.

For a new build, combining ventilation, heating/cooling and DHW should be seriously considered.

Having said that, I tend to think that it is easier to separate them as they do different things, at different times and at different temperatures (the 3Ds).

[SimonD]

8 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

There was a mhrv system that used a heat pump instead of the heat exchanger and could provide a kw or so of heating. 

 

Can't remember the name. 

 

Exhaust air heat pumps. First made by Nibe in the 1970s who are probably still the market leaders.

[-rick-]

13 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

I wondered if having some sort of grant availible for A2A models as long as they have the minimum (maximum?) cooling temp firmware locked at (say) 26C.  It should be a fairly simple software change - they already have different firmwares (or at least options) for things like language, units etc. 

 

But to be compliant they would need to be locked to it. Most of the other options are configurable by the installer. Select language from menu at install, etc.

 

Manufacturers will do exactly as they have done with A2W heatpumps. Create a different SKU for the UK and add a huge markup. Every SKU adds a lot of cost even if they don't want to make extra money.

 

13 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Though, to be honest just making the planning and red tape around A2A easier would help - if thry could get a refrigerant that didn't require an f-gas cert (and wasn't flammable or toxic) so thry could be diy'd it would be a massive step forward 

 

You are allowed to have propane cylinders of I think up to 15kg inside a house, but are not allowed to install A2A systems with R290 (99% propane) if they contain more than 500g of refridgerant.

Edited 23 hours ago by -rick-

[Beelbeebub]

6 hours ago, Dillsue said:

7 hours ago, -rick- said:

 

A quick glance at gridwatch for this summer says we're a long way off not needing gas in the summer so best dialling down AC for a good while.

 

NESO say for 2024 we had 37% green generation- 30% wind, 5% solar and 2% hydro. 

Looking at the hour to hour figures it seems like we quite often have around 2-3Gw of gas going even when the solar and wind are shooting up. The "margin" stays suspiciously constant so I suspect it's a spinning reserve issue. 

[Beelbeebub]

12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Quite a few about now.

Some can be had with a DHW system included.

For a new build, combining ventilation, heating/cooling and DHW should be seriously considered.

Having said that, I tend to think that it is easier to separate them as they do different things, at different times and at different temperatures (the 3Ds).

I was wondering if installing A2A alongside the existing gas heating and DHW is a good step to moving off gas. 

 

The systems are entirely separate. The homeowner can always drop back to gas if they struggle to stay warm or it's costing too much and thr DHW is already taken care of - this is especially true for houses with combi. 

 

Then, at a later date the DHW can be replaced with a heat pump cylinder led to the existing outside unit or off peak immersion or whatever. 

 

Plus cooling in the summer will be useful. 

[-rick-]

15 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Looking at the hour to hour figures it seems like we quite often have around 2-3Gw of gas going even when the solar and wind are shooting up. The "margin" stays suspiciously constant so I suspect it's a spinning reserve issue. 

 

Exactly, they are contracted to be on even if the power isn't needed. Changes are being made to eliminate the need for them in the not too distant future.

 

'Spinning Reserve' is a somewhat outdated concept. There is nothing to stop inverters from covering this function, the issue is that the software in inverters has been programmed to cut off if the grid gets out of spec rather than try to compensate (the grid didn't want to deal with the complexity and when renewables were new they didn't need to). Now we have more renewable generation and batteries on grid, inverter systems can take over this aspect of the grid. (of course with careful planning, testing and synchronisation).

Edited 23 hours ago by -rick-

[-rick-]

3 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

I was wondering if installing A2A alongside the existing gas heating and DHW is a good step to moving off gas. 

 

The systems are entirely separate. The homeowner can always drop back to gas if they struggle to stay warm or it's costing too much and thr DHW is already taken care of - this is especially true for houses with combi. 

 

It's one of those things I'd like to see trialled. Certainly the behaviour of the previous governments (which in this case I think means civil servants rather than ministers) has been to distrust the population and assume that allowing them to install something that can cool will lead to them using the cooling feature and still falling back to the traditional gas system for heating.

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of air based heating (or cooling) systems. I've never experienced one where I'm not disturbed by the noise when sleeping and I can see that pushing a lot of people to maybe install a system, use it partially but also keep relying on the quiet, hydronic, system much more than any government funded scheme would like. But I think it's worth trying, Americans tend to have air based systems and they don't generally see them as an issue.