The basic architect questions thread

[ETC]

On 30/09/2025 at 21:15, Spinny said:

Not clear to me what this third party company is you refer to.

Building Control can be done by the Local Authority, OR you can pay a private BC company to do this (or I think possibly a licenced individual ?).

You choose. I think generally the view is the LA is thorough, but can perhaps sometimes be jobsworth over some aspects, and might take days to turn up on site to inspect things, inconveniencing or delaying build. Private BC typically turn up quickly within 24 hours or so, and can be more pragmatic and less pedantic - many seem to be ex builders. However, it can feel cursory, and they may not look under the rug at all the details. I have the impression builders prefer private BC - Builders are the poachers, BC is the game keeper - so that maybe says something.

 

Architects process is - PP Drawings, then detailed Design & Construction Drawings, then Statement of Work, tender and contract award, then contract administration and oversight/support. You can choose to stop with them at any stage. We went through the full process except contract admin and oversight/support. Architect recommended a structural engineer. Structural engineer specified all the structural things - lintels, joists, beams, foundations, concrete slab spec and calcs in a report to accompany the detailed architect plans as input to BC for plans approval. All quite costly for us. But you get a lot defined clearly. Some builders barely read the SoW, but it becomes part of the contract with the drawings, and SE report. We paid the architect by the hour for support during build, unless it was drawing errors.

 

An awful lot depends on (a) your budget, and (b) your knowledge, time, desire, and abilities both technically and managerially and (c) how much you care about how close the build is to your spec. and (d) how much you are doing yourself, (e) your ability to deal with problems. Tight change management and change management records is ESSENTIAL. Regular meetings and communications is ESSENTIAL.

 

Remember the builder's/contractor's objectives are DIFFERENT, from your objectives. Builder/contractor wants no change, and can charge you what he likes for change. He is trying to make money, get the job done, and get the cash in. He will buy whatever is on the shelf at his favoured local merchant. He likes cheap, light stuff, hates special heavy stuff. Someone has to be gamekeeper. When it goes wrong - as it did for us - it is horrendous and expensive. Once a builder starts smashing up your house, or gets well into the build he has you by the ghoolies. Other builders don't like taking on part built jobs. Other builders will take probably a year to find and start any work. It can take 6-12months to terminate a contract. Your builder knows this. You need a detailed quote - don't accept estimates for electrics and plumbing - builders estimates can be half the actual quote. Keep a written paper daily diary.

 

Who will project manage ? Who will be on site ? Project management is demanding. I have had to do a lot of it because builders may not do any more than the basics. You want some item not in stock at the favoured merchant - you may have to source it and order it.

 

The builder/contractor may potentially, ignore the spec, challenge the spec, change the spec, buy the wrong materials, use out of date materials, not turn up. Best to know and choose what builders or contractors you are going to use before you start.

 

If it doesn't go well, you WILL need support. The builder/contractor may essentially ignore you questioning work - you need someone with all the letters after their name to tell them the same thing you said before they will do it. Be able to call in the SE or the Architect or even a QS - someone authoratative and suitably politely assertive. BC only do BC, they don't care what you specified, only whether it meets minimum regs. 

 

Sorry if this sounds bad - our single experience bad. Many good people out there no doubt, and on this forum. In general they are busy and challenging to find. Not trying to tar all with the same brush at all.

 

 

 

 

Alternatively use a CONTRACT…..and have extremely detailed drawings including a start date a completion date, liquidated damages……this will concentrate any contractors mind and sharpen his pencil. Get rid of the fag packet “quotes” and employ a QS to do a detailed BoQ priced before you tender the works so you know exactly what it should cost. The only variables will be foundations and possibly materials costs depending on contract chosen. JCT is ok but NEC seems to be the contract of choice these days for “equality” between contractor and client.

[ETC]

23 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

This is a good response.

 

I'll come to this later. The following is a bit of a summary, but provide a bit of context and I've included a nugget at the end for those that take the time to read this post all the way though. For folk that are not VAT exempt also see end. 

 

I'm an SE that also does Architectural design, oh and I was a Contractor for the first 20 years of my carear. In the round I probably know more than most about what an Architect does, how they behave when under pressure for example.

 

If you pay an experienced Architect a fair rate for a fair days pay then you will benefit. I'm not bad at Architectural Design and I work with Architects that not that bad at SE design! The process is collaborative and after you have done it for a while it's inevitable that a good Architect will have a good feel for the SE stuff. It's not a competition between SE's and Architects and we all love seeing stuff we have had a hand in designing getting built. 

 

On the face of it it takes a university degree and a further 3 -4 years to become an Architect.. and then you have a lot more learning to do, experience to gather. During that time you learn the craft of how planning, BC compliance works, get to know builders, when they try and pull the wool over your eyes, we learn a LOT of stuff; could be about heating systems, glazing, tiling @nod.. the nuts an bolts of how you build stuff and make it look good! 

 

Ok lets delve a bit deeper. When  I was a builder the BC officers used to come out and inspect my work. But now we speak as I'm now the agent  gettting planning and BC permissions for my Clients. There is nothing underhand here.. it just I know who to phone, where to to apply pressure and write in a way that sort planning and BC issues. An experienced Architect can do the same. That has value.. you pay for one professional to sort things out with one another. 

 

 

 

I agree. But in fairness on BH there are also many who will  pay you a reasonable rate for a fair days pay. There are indeed some vocal folk on BH who view designers as just a tooL, to abuse to get BC / planning permission. But many will end up paying too much for their build as they were not willing to say.. hey this designer might be able to save me more than their design fee or maybe have somne contact that they can introduce me to. 

 

In England you have this building notice system.. it looks like a good deal but is it really? If you cut corners at the deisgn stage then it could come back to bite you big time! BH is by it's nature probably populated by folk that have an element of common sense and experience of the construction industry so what you see on BH is not truly reflective of real life. 

 

So @ETC, you can lead a horse to water! Keep your head up!

 

Ok you mention fees! 

 

The fundamental problem as I see it is that Architects / desingers/ SE's (probaly the worst communicators) have not got with the programme and explain to Clients what they do, the spin off tacit benefits, contacts, after sale support (phone friend if you build starts to play up and in general that we want to help get stuff built. 

 

Over the last few years I've included when I think it will help the Clinet in my design brief the time it take me to complete each element. From the dimensional survey to getting BC approval. 

 

For all on BH here is how you can do a designer quote for an extension.

 

 

Dear xx Thank you for inviting me to xx last week to discuss making alterations to the house. 

 

I've partitioned the design brief below based us taking down part or all the wall between the existing kitchen and dining room, installing French type doors in the east gable wall (off the dining room), possibly infilling the existing back door, changing the general arrangement of the kitchen and lastly considering a porch type extension at the front which would include a wc and whb.

 

As discussed the council permissions can be split into two areas, planning and building warrant. For the French doors and altering any of the openings on the rear elevation I recommend that you first apply for a certificate of lawfulness as the gable can be viewed from the road. The same would apply for a front porch type extension. 

 

Taking down the wall internally only requires a building warrant. 

 

For transparency I've shown my allocated times. 

 

Should you accept my brief then the initial consultation fee of £100.00 will be waived.

 

 

Initial design and planning approvals:

 

Stage 1:

Site visit to carry out a dimensional survey, initial structural inspection. I anticipate that this will take me initially 1.5 days. 

 

Draw the floor plan of the two floors (this allows me to calculate the structural loads) and two elevation drawings with some ideas based on your initial requirements (3 days). Return to site to pick up other detailed dimensions (that come to light) as necessary when preparing the first set of drawings and meet with you for a concept design discussion. (0.5 day).

 

Stage 2: 

Revise the drawings to account for stage 1 design meetings and meet with you again. (1.0 day). In terms of the kitchen unit detailed design I would leave the detail to you but would show the basic outline on the drawings necessary to support any council applications.

 

Stage 3: 

Complete the drawing work up to a stage where we could seek a planning certificate of lawfulness for all or part of the work.

 

Act as your agent and make a certificate of lawfulness application on your behalf. (0.5 days). Currently the council fee for a certificate of lawfulness is £178.50, i.e. 50% of the full planning fee. Any council fees are over and above my design fee.

 

Total time for stages one to three inclusive = 6.5 days. 

 

 Building warrant application:

 

The above stages provide us with a pretty good set of layout drawings that then get worked up with more detail to support a building warrant application. In terms of structural design. 

 

 

Stage 4:

Prepare a set of drawings, structural calculations and structural drawings to support a building warrant application. At this stage we don't know the extent of the works but taking the key elements:

 

(a) Take down the wall between the kitchen and dining room for the calculations and drawings etc (2 days)

 

(b) French doors and external landing, calculations and drawings 2.0 days

 

(c) Front porch 4 days, essentially a small extension.

 

(d) Design meetings, 1 day

 

Act as your agent and make a building warrant application on your behalf, 0.5 days. The above time span would then be either 2.0 + 2.0 + 1 + 0.5 = 5.5 days for items a,b and d or

2.0 + 2.0 + 4.0 + 1 +0.5 = 9.5 days. 

 

Time range for stage four 5.5 to 9.5 days. 

 

The Council fees for a building warrant application vary depending on the value of the builder work excluding VAT. For example work valued at:

 

£15,001 to £16,000 fee is £558.00

£20,001 to £30,000 fee is £728.00

£30,001 to £40,000 fee is £806.00

£40,001 to £50,000 fee is £884.00

 

Stage 5: Provide an element of assistance and advice on selection of a building contractor and be available to answer any queries as work progresses on site. 

 

My design fees:

I would request the following design fees. VAT is not applicable to my fees. For transparency I've taken an average of the Structural design rate and the Architectural design rate as £275.00 per day. 

 

Stages 1 to 3 and 5  inclusive 6.5  days x £ 275.00 = £1787.50

 

Stage 4 and 5 range from 5.5 x 275 = £ 1512.50 to 9.5 x 275 = 2612.50

 

I would request that payment of stages 1 to 3 inclusive is made within 14 days from the time that this design work is ready for submission to the council. Stages 4 and 5 paid within 14 days from the time that the building warrant application is ready for submission to the council. Design information will be provided in electronic format, usually pdf. 

 

Now my lovelies on BH. This works for me. The above is written as I've already spent time with the Clent. But what I have done by being transparent is to make the Client aware what a fair days work entails and what I also bring to the table. Note my terms of payment. But it's not often I lose a job that I want to do. 

 

@ETC I don't want to hear you have been trousering a £100.00 five nights a week consulting but not actually doing any jobs! I often charge £100.00 as lots of folk.. like some on BH will milk you and they can f off!

 

 

 

I wouldn’t get out of bed for £100!😁

[ETC]

11 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

Another few dumb Q's please guys 🙃

 

1. We're assuming we want to specify our build budget up front to the architect, so he can design/spec accordingly. Would this seem like a sage approach? (I've heard some folks say keep quiet & see what the end result is, but that seems daft imo) Specify your budget up front. Take VAT, statutory fees and consultants fees off and you will have your “construction” budget. Keeping this information to yourself wastes your time and your “architect’s” time.

 

2. Is it typical an Architect's role is complete once design & structural drawings are done and everything signed off for construction to commence?Not necessarily. Ask your architect for a schedule of services. This will normally be for their input before construction, tendering, contract administration on-site inspection, valuation, certification, completion and post completion services - please note architects DO NOT supervise works on site - they periodically inspect the works. If so then I guess we pay them 'per visit or hour' if we need theor help with builder/Bc disputes? Yes if you agree for them to do it and pay them for it.

 

3. Would the architect reach out to builders to quote for the work? We assumed we'd do that, but it may be something they're happy to provide. Yes. Tender action is or can be part of the service they can give you. Again ask for a schedule of services.

 

 

Sounds like we need a project Mgr for this. It's a modest extension of 3 new rooms, possibly to take 3-4 months (according to 1 builder) & just a reasonably basic build but to a good standard. We don't have loads of time/experience in this area, so hence the numerous q's to arm ourselves with as much info as possible 😉 Please, please protect yourself by employing a good architect or other professional who knows what he/she is doing. Get a contract signed with your appointed professional and with any contractor you appoint to do the work. It’s not fool-proof but at least it should give you some peace of mind that you aren’t getting royally ripped off.

 

[ETC]

11 hours ago, torre said:

I think that's pretty reductive and unkind.  What you're describing, especially on this forum, is the inexperience of people who are heavily vested in a once in a lifetime self build and often juggling a limited budget across all areas. Any self help forum also tends to focus on fixing issues rather than praising successful outcomes too. People tend to get swayed by opinions of their builders because they're often more approachable and available.

 

Some architects need to explain better to such inexperienced clients what they do and how that's reflected in charges, and also how that may help clients save money and have their project run more smoothly down the line.

 

RIBA's 8 stages can seem more reflective of much larger works and at concept design some architects are guilty of prioritising design over budget prepared at earlier stages. Concept design is also a stage where self builders in particular are likely to have strong ideas about what they want and have their good ideas incorporated while their less workable ideas are improved by the architect.

 

We've had a good experience with the architect we chose, found a good balance of input, oversight and charges that reflected what both they as architect and we as clients and also as main contractors could contribute. It's easy to see though that a different architect could have brought plenty of creative and technical design and oversight to the project but fail to respect the client's own constraints and hopes for a project they've been dreaming of for years. There's a mix of real experiences on the forum of people who've paid little and had a poor experience alongside others who have paid a great deal and felt let down.

What I see are posters gloating at their ability to save a few quid by employing the local plan drawer under the guise of “an architect” when in reality their architect is a local plan drawer who can knock up a plan in his back bedroom for next to nothing perpetuating the myth that a) architects don’t know what they are doing, can’t design or build to save their life and cause all sorts of problems on site by sh*t drawings and b) that if you can knock up a plan you are an “architect” I see this so often - daily in fact - where plan drawers are referred to as an architect when in fact they are no more than a glorified cad monkey. I daily see the results of extremely badly drawn and inaccurate “construction” drawings costing builders time and you the home owner money. No wonder architects get a bad name! The ARB - the organisation for all “real” architects (the word is legally protected by the way) have a very good website and offer free impartial advice. 
 

Architects are required to set out what they are going to do and the cost for doing so BEFORE they do anything for you which should be set out in a schedule of services. The document is easy to read, sets out the obligations of both parties and should be clear and concise. If it’s not say so - and make sure everything is explained to you in words you can understand.

 

I agree that architects in the past may have been too up their own you know what and have put what they think as good design above their clients needs and budget but I think those days are passing quickly - the market is too competitive to allow grand-standing and that pedestal is getting too high.

 

The RIBA’s plan of work is supposed to be all encompassing when it comes to project management and on the whole should work quite capably with small projects as well as large projects.

 

Here endeth the lesson……..for the moment.

[Gus Potter]

22 hours ago, ETC said:

wouldn’t get out of bed for £100!😁

Interesting comment.

 

In a previous post I copied in a design brief as a rough guide. Many on BH know I come from a contracting background and have run a larger contracting business before I reinvented myself as an SE / Designer.  I now work for myself as a designer and compete with Architects for work. To enable that I have to generate business and make no mistake this domestic building game is very much a people and a competetive business and I'm up against Architects most of the time. But they don't have the SE knowledge and the younger ones lack the hard nosed business and practical skills.

 

One Key one here is to recognise in this day in age is design flair is not enough, we need to let our Clients see we can deliver boots on the ground and control cost. 

 

There are members of BH that are chippies, brickies, trades people. The expectation of customers is that trades folk will come to site, look at their drawings, spend time quoting which can take lots of unpaid hours, the customer milks the good ones for their knowledge and then selects the cheapest quote. 

 

I charge a fee for an intial consultation mainly because I feel that it encourages folk to take the process seriously. If you look on the internet you see that Architect's might want £750.00 to have a chat (initail consultation) with you. I just use a different business model that suits me.

 

Now funnily, some Clients ask how much do you think this will cost. I can often give them a ball park figures but then say.. I can offer you two options if you want more certainty. First,  I work with a QS so you'll get a high level cost breakdown ( good if you need lending) for a fee or I can ask one of the builders that I work with regularly to spend say half a day putting a price on it... but you'll need to pay them for their time. This also means that when I go to tender the builders and Clients have confidence in me that I will be fair when asked to arbitrate any contract. The builder is happy as I have recognised their skills. Some of the builders I work with are qualified engineers, expert trades people andhave extensive experience , in certain areas, lots more than I have. 

 

But I can tell you this.. see when I want a design brief, I usually get it. 

 

There is a common law of business that applies to small builders / trades folk contracting. If you are pricing jobs from unsolicited enquiries and you get 50% then you are too cheep, if you are pricing and not getting 1 in 4-5 then you are loosing money and expending too much resource. @saveasteading, @nod , @ProDave et all may be able to add a bit here.

 

@ETC my work is also my hobby and I schedule my consultations in the evenings, you get out the office, meet folk, it's not a bad life. So add up a few £100.00 and.. if you are a budding Architect that want's to set up on their own then maybe my set up might suit you? 

 

In the round though. A good Architect will posess all the design and business skills I have, yes they won't be an SE but they should be able to make a go of it if they set up on their own and are able to get along with folk. They key is often to get the basic bread and butter work that pays for the cad license, insurance, the mortgage and then you can look for the profitable jobs. 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

a common law of business that applies to small builders / trades folk contracting.

Prompted by @Gus Potter

Every business is different.  But I would give the same quote to a prospective client who openly say 'you come recommended, and we would like  a building to do this' ... as I would in formal competitive tender.

The former looks like a blank cheque, to add a bit of profit. But it's going to be an easier job, and collaborative,   and our reputation hangs on it. Meanwhile the formal one will have the client's consultants all over it trying to show how clever and tough they are.

 

In discussion with a big contractor's  MD today , he said publicly that there are about 5 or 6 Architects practices he would refuse to work with, based on very extensive experience. and that collaboration and trust are best for all parties. My attitude was much the same, but includes not liking the attitude of the potential client.... will they pay basically.

 

If a client won't say how many contractors they are asking, then you might be one of 6, with one of them being desperate for work and pricing at a tiny margin. wasting our time, and resources, and with the job suffering on quaity and programme. So no thankyou.

[SilverShadow]

Thanks again for the wide array of responses guys - it's obviously a hugely evocative subject 😅

Apologies again, if this has stirred up ill feelings 

 

A few more questions, if you guys would indulge further.....

 

Our architect has stated that revisions are included in the quote (a full redraw would naturally cost extra though). For revisions:

 

1. Presumably, these can occur even after planning phase (ie: during construction phase), if the design changes for whatever reason?

2. Can anyone specify what is classed as a revision, or redraw - or is this best to clarify with the architect? (i'd assume revisions would be something  reasonably minor, eg: not knocking down a partition wall/adding a downstairs 'under the stairs' loo, and redraw would be to start from scratch). It's that fine line where a change is so big it's no longer class as a revision, that's the most intriguing thing

3. If we decide not to do all the proposed work/ require slight changes, then do we need architects drawings updating to reflect this for BC to sign off/approve the build? (I guess it depends on what the deviation from plan is)

 

 

Regardng bullet point 3: our plan is for the architect to design all our requirements, then likely scale back once costs are known. We were wondering if scaling back needs extra drawing revisions in order for BC to be happy......

 

 

Huge thanks as always chaps!

Shadow

 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, SilverShadow said:

Apologies again, if this has stirred up ill feelings

No need to apologise, they’re all grown ups who are just getting their 2 cents out and onto the table.   

 

1 hour ago, SilverShadow said:

Thanks again for the wide array of responses guys - it's obviously a hugely evocative subject 😅

Apologies again, if this has stirred up ill feelings 

 

A few more questions, if you guys would indulge further.....

 

Our architect has stated that revisions are included in the quote (a full redraw would naturally cost extra though). For revisions:

 

1. Presumably, these can occur even after planning phase (ie: during construction phase), if the design changes for whatever reason?

2. Can anyone specify what is classed as a revision, or redraw - or is this best to clarify with the architect? (i'd assume revisions would be something  reasonably minor, eg: not knocking down a partition wall/adding a downstairs 'under the stairs' loo, and redraw would be to start from scratch). It's that fine line where a change is so big it's no longer class as a revision, that's the most intriguing thing

3. If we decide not to do all the proposed work/ require slight changes, then do we need architects drawings updating to reflect this for BC to sign off/approve the build? (I guess it depends on what the deviation from plan is)

 

 

Regardng bullet point 3: our plan is for the architect to design all our requirements, then likely scale back once costs are known. We were wondering if scaling back needs extra drawing revisions in order for BC to be happy......

 

 

Huge thanks as always chaps!

Shadow

 

Best to simply ask your chosen architect? It’s their contract that has their unique terms within, so in actuality you should already be in possession of those terms; it should be available to you from day 1, contained within their terms of business and T&C’s?

[torre]

3 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

Apologies again, if this has stirred up ill feelings 

If you'd started a basic builders/trades etc thread instead I think you'd see a similar mix of views, coloured by individual good and bad experiences rather than anything intended to offend contributors.