The basic architect questions thread

[SilverShadow]

Hey all,

 

Firstly let me say, this is not to bash architects (there seems to be some of that already! 😉), so im not here to decry their skills & service in any way...

 

I'm here to ask a few fundamental Q's, please. So would be most grateful if anyone knows the following:

 

Working with building control - as I understand, it's common place for them to be the linchpin in having each stage signed off till completion. But would you also expect them to mediate with the builder (as part of their standard fee), whenever challenges around cost, design or build materials/finish come up? I'm assuming they act as guardians of design & quality, so I'd expect them to push back if the builder tries to deviate from the plans...

 

 

Also, has anyone known of using multiple architects in a project (eg, a fallout with the builder part way through construction, or 1 architect does the plan & another works with those plans till sign off)? I'm just curious as to how flexible architects are with using another's drawings  or continuing where a previous one left off....

 

 

Apologies if these seek like dumb Q's, but I'm just furnishing myself with as much knowledge as possible 😀 

 

Best regards 

Shadow 

Edited September 30 by SilverShadow

[Mr Punter]

Your architect can supply a full set of drawings and spec and submit to building control to comply with regs.  This is a fair chunk of work and involves a lot of toing and froing.  Once you have your full plans submission accepted it is normal that your builder deals with building control.  Try not to change your mind later in the process as it may lead to extra cost.

 

If you fall out with the architect you can appoint a replacement.  They won't need to start from scratch but it may cost a bit more.

[SilverShadow]

Thanks for the heads up. The architect who visited gave some good ideas for room layout/access & front elevation appearance. He's offered to do minor revisions as part of the original cost (only a full redraw incurs charges)

 

We're thinking to ask him to do the full plan with all his suggestions, & trim back if builders quotes/construction costs soar. He's quoted separately for plans to be submitted to the PP for layout & another quote for the construction diagrams for BC

 

He's also suggested a 3rd party company to deal with building control during construction. I'm not 100% sure on this, but he's confident these guys help things run smoother

[nod]

As above 

I would try to keep Architects fees to a minimum Weve kept under 5k both times and had excellent service and design 

Theres really no need for Architects to Lease with BC You can easily do this yourself 

 

Getting Architects involved in disputes with builders Isn’t a good idea and would be very costly 

[SilverShadow]

Great advice

 

The quote we got was just under £4k for drawings to both PP & BC.

 

As far as I can tell, PP fees are around £600 & BC around £900. These are additional to his £4k quote

 

He's also indicated approx £900 for the 3rd party company to deal with BC and a similar figure if we need a structural engineer (if we find out the foundations are a problem & need advice)

 

So it sounds within the cost boundary you mentioned

[SilverShadow]

Ps, the bit that confuses me is this 3rd party company. He rates them because many of them used to work for BC, so know the score. He suggested they will help keep the build on track & minimise delay.

 

But if there's a problem with BC, I can't see how they mitigate delays & allow work to continue - ultimately BC decide what is acceptable & when it can be signed off??

 

I suspect its not to bog down his builder friend & keep focused on the task

Edited September 30 by SilverShadow

[nod]

31 minutes ago, SilverShadow said:

Ps, the bit that confuses me is this 3rd party company. He rates them because many of them used to work for BC, so know the score. He suggested they will help keep the build on track & minimise delay.

 

But if there's a problem with BC, I can't see how they mitigate delays & allow work to continue - ultimately BC decide what is acceptable & when it can be signed off??

 

I suspect its not to bog down his builder friend & keep focused on the task

We’ve recently come in under £1000 m2 Keeping fees to a minimum are key 

Dont get to worried about BC 

They will make it clear to you what they expect 

Most visits pass without any drama 

Local Authority are far better than private BC and usually quite a bit cheaper 

[ETC]

I really, really despair at these kinds of posts.

 

It’s not the architect bashing that gets me it’s the stupidity and ignorance shown by so many people in relation to what an architect does and what an architect charges.

 

I can see that architects are not valued at all and the fees quoted here are ludicrously low - and gloated over.

 

I would seriously question if any of the posters above have actually appointed an architect to their project - in my experience 99% of the people I deal with cannot differentiate an architect from a plan drawerer. What did they use to say - pay peanuts get monkeys!

[ETC]

4 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

Hey all,

 

Firstly let me say, this is not to bash architects (there seems to be some of that already! 😉), so im not here to decry their skills & service in any way...

 

I'm here to ask a few fundamental Q's, please. So would be most grateful if anyone knows the following:

 

Working with building control - as I understand, it's common place for them to be the linchpin in having each stage signed off till completion. But would you also expect them to mediate with the builder (as part of their standard fee), whenever challenges around cost, design or build materials/finish come up? I'm assuming they act as guardians of design & quality, so I'd expect them to push back if the builder tries to deviate from the plans...

Yes if you pay them. No if you don’t 

 

 

Also, has anyone known of using multiple architects in a project (eg, a fallout with the builder part way through construction, or 1 architect does the plan & another works with those plans till sign off)? I'm just curious as to how flexible architects are with using another's drawings  or continuing where a previous one left off....

Very messy. Don’t go there.

 

 

Apologies if these seek like dumb Q's, but I'm just furnishing myself with as much knowledge as possible 😀 

 

Best regards 

Shadow 

 

[Spinny]

Not clear to me what this third party company is you refer to.

Building Control can be done by the Local Authority, OR you can pay a private BC company to do this (or I think possibly a licenced individual ?).

You choose. I think generally the view is the LA is thorough, but can perhaps sometimes be jobsworth over some aspects, and might take days to turn up on site to inspect things, inconveniencing or delaying build. Private BC typically turn up quickly within 24 hours or so, and can be more pragmatic and less pedantic - many seem to be ex builders. However, it can feel cursory, and they may not look under the rug at all the details. I have the impression builders prefer private BC - Builders are the poachers, BC is the game keeper - so that maybe says something.

 

Architects process is - PP Drawings, then detailed Design & Construction Drawings, then Statement of Work, tender and contract award, then contract administration and oversight/support. You can choose to stop with them at any stage. We went through the full process except contract admin and oversight/support. Architect recommended a structural engineer. Structural engineer specified all the structural things - lintels, joists, beams, foundations, concrete slab spec and calcs in a report to accompany the detailed architect plans as input to BC for plans approval. All quite costly for us. But you get a lot defined clearly. Some builders barely read the SoW, but it becomes part of the contract with the drawings, and SE report. We paid the architect by the hour for support during build, unless it was drawing errors.

 

An awful lot depends on (a) your budget, and (b) your knowledge, time, desire, and abilities both technically and managerially and (c) how much you care about how close the build is to your spec. and (d) how much you are doing yourself, (e) your ability to deal with problems. Tight change management and change management records is ESSENTIAL. Regular meetings and communications is ESSENTIAL.

 

Remember the builder's/contractor's objectives are DIFFERENT, from your objectives. Builder/contractor wants no change, and can charge you what he likes for change. He is trying to make money, get the job done, and get the cash in. He will buy whatever is on the shelf at his favoured local merchant. He likes cheap, light stuff, hates special heavy stuff. Someone has to be gamekeeper. When it goes wrong - as it did for us - it is horrendous and expensive. Once a builder starts smashing up your house, or gets well into the build he has you by the ghoolies. Other builders don't like taking on part built jobs. Other builders will take probably a year to find and start any work. It can take 6-12months to terminate a contract. Your builder knows this. You need a detailed quote - don't accept estimates for electrics and plumbing - builders estimates can be half the actual quote. Keep a written paper daily diary.

 

Who will project manage ? Who will be on site ? Project management is demanding. I have had to do a lot of it because builders may not do any more than the basics. You want some item not in stock at the favoured merchant - you may have to source it and order it.

 

The builder/contractor may potentially, ignore the spec, challenge the spec, change the spec, buy the wrong materials, use out of date materials, not turn up. Best to know and choose what builders or contractors you are going to use before you start.

 

If it doesn't go well, you WILL need support. The builder/contractor may essentially ignore you questioning work - you need someone with all the letters after their name to tell them the same thing you said before they will do it. Be able to call in the SE or the Architect or even a QS - someone authoratative and suitably politely assertive. BC only do BC, they don't care what you specified, only whether it meets minimum regs. 

 

Sorry if this sounds bad - our single experience bad. Many good people out there no doubt, and on this forum. In general they are busy and challenging to find. Not trying to tar all with the same brush at all.

 

 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

1 hour ago, ETC said:

I really, really despair at these kinds of posts.

 

It’s not the architect bashing that gets me it’s the stupidity and ignorance shown by so many people in relation to what an architect does and what an architect charges.

 

 

This is a good response.

 

5 hours ago, SilverShadow said:

Firstly let me say, this is not to bash architects

I'll come to this later. The following is a bit of a summary, but provide a bit of context and I've included a nugget at the end for those that take the time to read this post all the way though. For folk that are not VAT exempt also see end. 

 

I'm an SE that also does Architectural design, oh and I was a Contractor for the first 20 years of my carear. In the round I probably know more than most about what an Architect does, how they behave when under pressure for example.

 

If you pay an experienced Architect a fair rate for a fair days pay then you will benefit. I'm not bad at Architectural Design and I work with Architects that not that bad at SE design! The process is collaborative and after you have done it for a while it's inevitable that a good Architect will have a good feel for the SE stuff. It's not a competition between SE's and Architects and we all love seeing stuff we have had a hand in designing getting built. 

 

On the face of it it takes a university degree and a further 3 -4 years to become an Architect.. and then you have a lot more learning to do, experience to gather. During that time you learn the craft of how planning, BC compliance works, get to know builders, when they try and pull the wool over your eyes, we learn a LOT of stuff; could be about heating systems, glazing, tiling @nod.. the nuts an bolts of how you build stuff and make it look good! 

 

Ok lets delve a bit deeper. When  I was a builder the BC officers used to come out and inspect my work. But now we speak as I'm now the agent  gettting planning and BC permissions for my Clients. There is nothing underhand here.. it just I know who to phone, where to to apply pressure and write in a way that sort planning and BC issues. An experienced Architect can do the same. That has value.. you pay for one professional to sort things out with one another. 

 

 

1 hour ago, ETC said:

I can see that architects are not valued at all and the fees quoted here are ludicrously low - and gloated over.

 

I agree. But in fairness on BH there are also many who will  pay you a reasonable rate for a fair days pay. There are indeed some vocal folk on BH who view designers as just a tooL, to abuse to get BC / planning permission. But many will end up paying too much for their build as they were not willing to say.. hey this designer might be able to save me more than their design fee or maybe have somne contact that they can introduce me to. 

 

In England you have this building notice system.. it looks like a good deal but is it really? If you cut corners at the deisgn stage then it could come back to bite you big time! BH is by it's nature probably populated by folk that have an element of common sense and experience of the construction industry so what you see on BH is not truly reflective of real life. 

 

So @ETC, you can lead a horse to water! Keep your head up!

 

Ok you mention fees! 

 

The fundamental problem as I see it is that Architects / desingers/ SE's (probaly the worst communicators) have not got with the programme and explain to Clients what they do, the spin off tacit benefits, contacts, after sale support (phone friend if you build starts to play up and in general that we want to help get stuff built. 

 

Over the last few years I've included when I think it will help the Clinet in my design brief the time it take me to complete each element. From the dimensional survey to getting BC approval. 

 

For all on BH here is how you can do a designer quote for an extension.

 

 

Dear xx Thank you for inviting me to xx last week to discuss making alterations to the house. 

 

I've partitioned the design brief below based us taking down part or all the wall between the existing kitchen and dining room, installing French type doors in the east gable wall (off the dining room), possibly infilling the existing back door, changing the general arrangement of the kitchen and lastly considering a porch type extension at the front which would include a wc and whb.

 

As discussed the council permissions can be split into two areas, planning and building warrant. For the French doors and altering any of the openings on the rear elevation I recommend that you first apply for a certificate of lawfulness as the gable can be viewed from the road. The same would apply for a front porch type extension. 

 

Taking down the wall internally only requires a building warrant. 

 

For transparency I've shown my allocated times. 

 

Should you accept my brief then the initial consultation fee of £100.00 will be waived.

 

 

Initial design and planning approvals:

 

Stage 1:

Site visit to carry out a dimensional survey, initial structural inspection. I anticipate that this will take me initially 1.5 days. 

 

Draw the floor plan of the two floors (this allows me to calculate the structural loads) and two elevation drawings with some ideas based on your initial requirements (3 days). Return to site to pick up other detailed dimensions (that come to light) as necessary when preparing the first set of drawings and meet with you for a concept design discussion. (0.5 day).

 

Stage 2: 

Revise the drawings to account for stage 1 design meetings and meet with you again. (1.0 day). In terms of the kitchen unit detailed design I would leave the detail to you but would show the basic outline on the drawings necessary to support any council applications.

 

Stage 3: 

Complete the drawing work up to a stage where we could seek a planning certificate of lawfulness for all or part of the work.

 

Act as your agent and make a certificate of lawfulness application on your behalf. (0.5 days). Currently the council fee for a certificate of lawfulness is £178.50, i.e. 50% of the full planning fee. Any council fees are over and above my design fee.

 

Total time for stages one to three inclusive = 6.5 days. 

 

 Building warrant application:

 

The above stages provide us with a pretty good set of layout drawings that then get worked up with more detail to support a building warrant application. In terms of structural design. 

 

 

Stage 4:

Prepare a set of drawings, structural calculations and structural drawings to support a building warrant application. At this stage we don't know the extent of the works but taking the key elements:

 

(a) Take down the wall between the kitchen and dining room for the calculations and drawings etc (2 days)

 

(b) French doors and external landing, calculations and drawings 2.0 days

 

(c) Front porch 4 days, essentially a small extension.

 

(d) Design meetings, 1 day

 

Act as your agent and make a building warrant application on your behalf, 0.5 days. The above time span would then be either 2.0 + 2.0 + 1 + 0.5 = 5.5 days for items a,b and d or

2.0 + 2.0 + 4.0 + 1 +0.5 = 9.5 days. 

 

Time range for stage four 5.5 to 9.5 days. 

 

The Council fees for a building warrant application vary depending on the value of the builder work excluding VAT. For example work valued at:

 

£15,001 to £16,000 fee is £558.00

£20,001 to £30,000 fee is £728.00

£30,001 to £40,000 fee is £806.00

£40,001 to £50,000 fee is £884.00

 

Stage 5: Provide an element of assistance and advice on selection of a building contractor and be available to answer any queries as work progresses on site. 

 

My design fees:

I would request the following design fees. VAT is not applicable to my fees. For transparency I've taken an average of the Structural design rate and the Architectural design rate as £275.00 per day. 

 

Stages 1 to 3 and 5  inclusive 6.5  days x £ 275.00 = £1787.50

 

Stage 4 and 5 range from 5.5 x 275 = £ 1512.50 to 9.5 x 275 = 2612.50

 

I would request that payment of stages 1 to 3 inclusive is made within 14 days from the time that this design work is ready for submission to the council. Stages 4 and 5 paid within 14 days from the time that the building warrant application is ready for submission to the council. Design information will be provided in electronic format, usually pdf. 

 

Now my lovelies on BH. This works for me. The above is written as I've already spent time with the Clent. But what I have done by being transparent is to make the Client aware what a fair days work entails and what I also bring to the table. Note my terms of payment. But it's not often I lose a job that I want to do. 

 

@ETC I don't want to hear you have been trousering a £100.00 five nights a week consulting but not actually doing any jobs! I often charge £100.00 as lots of folk.. like some on BH will milk you and they can f off!

 

 

 

Edited September 30 by Gus Potter

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, nod said:

Getting Architects involved in disputes with builders Isn’t a good idea and would be very costly 

But essential if it gets legal or the BC requires it.  That could be Architect , SE, QS according to the context. 

 

But if the drawings and spec are clear then it's easy. Is it built as drawing? 

 

Fees. If you take a cheap price for the architecture bit,  then it is very likely that you get a simple and vague design, that requires further info from others.

But it might be plenty if the house is simple and standard.

 

For the structure.  If you go for a very cheap design quote then you may get a conservative design, whereas another few hours of thought and analysis would more than pay for itself.

 

Or someone specifies a kit, and again you pay in other ways.

 

BUT sometimes consultants are simply very good at what they do, so it's easy and good value. 

 

Project management is where the self builder can gain, if they have the knowledge and personnel skills. After the day job  simply spend another 5 hours a day for 18 months and you will save s fortune.... ie you use a cheaper builder, buy the materials yourself, and do the qc.

But if things go wrong it's ALL up to you.

 

Re choice of BCO. In Scotland there is only the LA.

In England I would use the LA for a routine house, and only that. Private BC for anything out of the ordinary.

 

[Gus Potter]

To add a bit. There was some smart arse on BH that moaned about me disclosing my rates a while ago. 

 

The above fees at £275 a day covers all the extra hours (I charge more when working as an SE, but less when I've got my "architect" hat / drafting and drawing hat on) I need to run the business so my actual time on the job is less, as I have admin, I have to generate new work and so on. But in the round any good business needs bread and butter work to keep the wheels on the bus. 

 

@ETC yes folk take the piss, just ask how much it costs to get a "washing machine" engineer on a call out! 

[nod]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

But essential if it gets legal or the BC requires it.  That could be Architect , SE, QS according to the context. 

 

But if the drawings and spec are clear then it's easy. Is it built as drawing? 

 

Fees. If you take a cheap price for the architecture bit,  then it is very likely that you get a simple and vague design, that requires further info from others.

But it might be plenty if the house is simple and standard.

 

For the structure.  If you go for a very cheap design quote then you may get a conservative design, whereas another few hours of thought and analysis would more than pay for itself.

 

Or someone specifies a kit, and again you pay in other ways.

 

BUT sometimes consultants are simply very good at what they do, so it's easy and good value. 

 

Project management is where the self builder can gain, if they have the knowledge and personnel skills. After the day job  simply spend another 5 hours a day for 18 months and you will save s fortune.... ie you use a cheaper builder, buy the materials yourself, and do the qc.

But if things go wrong it's ALL up to you.

 

Re choice of BCO. In Scotland there is only the LA.

In England I would use the LA for a routine house, and only that. Private BC for anything out of the ordinary.

 

BC are more likely to want a SE to be involved Architects are not all that technical and tend to defer to a Structural engineer 

 

Regarding legal matters I’ve stated on many occasions that it’s essential that you appoint an Architect totally independent of the builder Not one that has been recommended by one or the other 

For this very reason 

[saveasteading]

9 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

washing machine" engineer

That's the issue. The fitter who calls themselves an engineer didn't  study until their mid twenties (or later) before being allowed loose on washing machines.

They can earn from age 18 or so. 10% more earning time.

 

My business PI insurance was 20k pa.... (then add contractors and emoloyers risk ) which rather eats into the funds too.

Tomorrow I'm going to a construction exhibition/ talks. A day of my life that can't be charged for, but which may benefit my knowledge / benefit clients BH . Last year the main thing I learnt was that screw pile suppliers didn't understand their product or Engineering, and didn't know that they didn't know it,  but were good at marketing.

 

[G and J]

I (J) hesitate to enter the fray here as this appears to be an emotive subject (including, at some points, within our own household!) but here goes

 

We bought a run down bungalow, with a good size garden for an urban area, in our ideal location.

 

We had a good idea of how we wanted to remodel it (add an upstairs) and did our own preapp during the period the sale was going through.

 

Once we got a positive pre app we did a beauty parade with a couple of local architects " we are VERY hands on, have quite clear ideas of how we want to live, have a a couple of "difficult" experiences before  (in truth the latter was partly because we were't clear enough in defining the ground rules/expectations) and we want to spend £ "

 

The practice we chose was a good match, values wise, and the first key intervention  "knock it down". G was well along that route as a possibility, but the reasoning and experience the architect offered both in terms of end results, as well as costs, of trying to upgrade the existing was really helpful to me (J).

 

As we had spent a lot of time laying out floorplans ourselves the stage pricing was adjusted accordingly (less for the initial survey/design phase) they were also really clear to set out additional costs eg fees, SE, BC etc. and the potential cost of the build if we went the main contractor route. Very much along the lines of @Gus Potter

 

They prepared and submitted planning (they "know") the area, and the planners and planning was approved first time almost within the "given" timescales

 

The building control drawings were more £ but boy did they earn their money. There was a good degree of to-ing and fro-ing regards how the wall build ups would be, what materials would be specified etc as we were hoping to do something outside their "norm" (learning from here)

 

They suggested a couple of local options for BC, and for the SAP requirements, both of which, so far 🤞, have been "sensible and pragmatic".

 

The fact that we had the architect drawings also helped in the warranty/insurance process, and it would seem that based on discussion here, we've paid "reasonable" premiums

 

We chose to have a frame built off site, due partly to the nature of our plot, but the frame company commented that the BC drawing were amongst the better ones they see from architects in terms of actual buildability.

 

As we are building (including constructing the frame kit), the design "works" ....where for example blocks have needed cutting it's because we've "tweaked" something

 

So yes it seemed a large £ upfront, but in reality its probably going to be less than 5% of our final spend; it set us off on the correct path (demolish and rebuild), it minimised the planning angst, and finally it furnished us with something we could use to build in a way that we could undertake the project management/oversight which has and will bring savings as per @saveasteading

 

So yes, there is an element of a leap of faith and when budgets are tight you "wonder", but at the end of the day, depending on experience (we're not all @nod) it would seem that you "pays your money and takes your choice" somewhere along the line....

 

There,  light the blue touch paper and retire......

 

Ps. It' also fair to add that G is still not "quite as fond"...

Edited October 1 by G and J
Ps

[SilverShadow]

13 hours ago, nod said:

We’ve recently come in under £1000 m2 Keeping fees to a minimum are key 

Dont get to worried about BC 

They will make it clear to you what they expect 

Most visits pass without any drama 

Local Authority are far better than private BC and usually quite a bit cheaper 

 

 

I think £1000/m2 is a fantastic price, but very optimistic for us (given its a 2 storey extension with pitched roof)

 

Obviously we won't know till the designs are done & builders quotes arrive. But even one of those rubbish £/m2 calculators suggested £1900/m2

 

I wouldn't trust that figure at all, but guesstimate it might be £2-2.5k/m2 (especially the higher end, if the old foundations are found to be lacking)

 

We may consider being direct contact for BC during construction. But we've both got busy jobs & so little time for the to & fro messenger boy role between BC & the builder (especially if disputes occur between them)

 

[SilverShadow]

12 hours ago, ETC said:

I really, really despair at these kinds of posts.

 

It’s not the architect bashing that gets me it’s the stupidity and ignorance shown by so many people in relation to what an architect does and what an architect charges.

 

I can see that architects are not valued at all and the fees quoted here are ludicrously low - and gloated over.

 

I would seriously question if any of the posters above have actually appointed an architect to their project - in my experience 99% of the people I deal with cannot differentiate an architect from a plan drawerer. What did they use to say - pay peanuts get monkeys!

 

I've certainly tried to avoid any disrespect. Merely here to learn & appreciate others insights

 

The rough costs we understand. But the overall process/roles & responsibilities from design to completion are what I'm hoping to find out more

 

I suspect it'll be in the subsequent posts to this one 

[nod]

13 minutes ago, SilverShadow said:

 

 

I think £1000/m2 is a fantastic price, but very optimistic for us (given its a 2 storey extension with pitched roof)

 

Obviously we won't know till the designs are done & builders quotes arrive. But even one of those rubbish £/m2 calculators suggested £1900/m2

 

I wouldn't trust that figure at all, but guesstimate it might be £2-2.5k/m2 (especially the higher end, if the old foundations are found to be lacking)

 

We may consider being direct contact for BC during construction. But we've both got busy jobs & so little time for the to & fro messenger boy role between BC & the builder (especially if disputes occur between them)

 

Yes 

But we did it as a self build and didn’t use a builder 

A builder is going to charge around 2-3k m2

[SilverShadow]

Another few dumb Q's please guys 🙃

 

1. We're assuming we want to specify our build budget up front to the architect, so he can design/spec accordingly. Would this seem like a sage approach? (I've heard some folks say keep quiet & see what the end result is, but that seems daft imo)

 

2. Is it typical an Architect's role is complete once design & structural drawings are done and everything signed off for construction to commence? If so then I guess we pay them 'per visit or hour' if we need theor help with builder/Bc disputes?

 

3. Would the architect reach out to builders to quote for the work? We assumed we'd do that, but it may be something they're happy to provide 

 

 

Sounds like we need a project Mgr for this. It's a modest extension of 3 new rooms, possibly to take 3-4 months (according to 1 builder) & just a reasonably basic build but to a good standard. We don't have loads of time/experience in this area, so hence the numerous q's to arm ourselves with as much info as possible 😉 

Edited October 1 by SilverShadow

[torre]

12 hours ago, ETC said:

it’s the stupidity and ignorance shown by so many people in relation to what an architect does and what an architect charges

I think that's pretty reductive and unkind.  What you're describing, especially on this forum, is the inexperience of people who are heavily vested in a once in a lifetime self build and often juggling a limited budget across all areas. Any self help forum also tends to focus on fixing issues rather than praising successful outcomes too. People tend to get swayed by opinions of their builders because they're often more approachable and available.

 

Some architects need to explain better to such inexperienced clients what they do and how that's reflected in charges, and also how that may help clients save money and have their project run more smoothly down the line.

 

RIBA's 8 stages can seem more reflective of much larger works and at concept design some architects are guilty of prioritising design over budget prepared at earlier stages. Concept design is also a stage where self builders in particular are likely to have strong ideas about what they want and have their good ideas incorporated while their less workable ideas are improved by the architect.

 

We've had a good experience with the architect we chose, found a good balance of input, oversight and charges that reflected what both they as architect and we as clients and also as main contractors could contribute. It's easy to see though that a different architect could have brought plenty of creative and technical design and oversight to the project but fail to respect the client's own constraints and hopes for a project they've been dreaming of for years. There's a mix of real experiences on the forum of people who've paid little and had a poor experience alongside others who have paid a great deal and felt let down.

[nod]

I think where Architects do come into there own Is dealing with planners They know what will and won’t fly and are normally on first name terms with planners 

 

Our first build PP was a piece of cake for our Architects No real issues 

Our second for some reason was an absolute nightmare for him Ridiculous requests for endless surveys I was glad to not be dealing with it myself 

[saveasteading]

8 hours ago, torre said:

prioritising design over budget

I once told an Architect that a project would cost much more than the guideline he was giving the client.

He said " the client always finds more money".

I declined further involvement and told the client. They later invited me to the finished project and wouldn't talk about the cost, but I think it was shockingly more.

I did build for another client with him as Architect. He asked for changes that were very expensive. I gave an estimate but he wanted it free of charge, because it would look better (in his portfolio). Our client agreed it was unaffordable and we did it the less functional way that met the budget.

 

I should emphasise that both projects were very far from standard and were 'design and build'. The Architect could not work to any budget, perhaps had no idea of costs, but prob didn't care as long as he got his fee.

 

Of course they are not all like that, but it's common. 

 

[SteeVeeDee]

When I was a building contractor I learned to decline work on projects managed by architects. I also later declined working for architects' own homes. I sometimes wonder when they have the spare time to be making and issuing constant new drawings. Surely the skill of the architect is to visualize the project in advance so that when the project starts everything (wishful thinking) is already drawn and detailed? A great architect is a rare beast indeed but they can be absolutely fantastic to work with and the projects go smoothly, on budget, on time.  Such a shame that they're so rare.

[SteeVeeDee]

8 hours ago, torre said:

I think that's pretty reductive and unkind.  What you're describing, especially on this forum, is the inexperience of people who are heavily vested in a once in a lifetime self build and often juggling a limited budget across all areas. Any self help forum also tends to focus on fixing issues rather than praising successful outcomes too. People tend to get swayed by opinions of their builders because they're often more approachable and available.

 

Some architects need to explain better to such inexperienced clients what they do and how that's reflected in charges, and also how that may help clients save money and have their project run more smoothly down the line.

 

RIBA's 8 stages can seem more reflective of much larger works and at concept design some architects are guilty of prioritising design over budget prepared at earlier stages. Concept design is also a stage where self builders in particular are likely to have strong ideas about what they want and have their good ideas incorporated while their less workable ideas are improved by the architect.

 

We've had a good experience with the architect we chose, found a good balance of input, oversight and charges that reflected what both they as architect and we as clients and also as main contractors could contribute. It's easy to see though that a different architect could have brought plenty of creative and technical design and oversight to the project but fail to respect the client's own constraints and hopes for a project they've been dreaming of for years. There's a mix of real experiences on the forum of people who've paid little and had a poor experience alongside others who have paid a great deal and felt let down.

 

I agree. When I was on the tools I regularly would see clients that had been manipulated by tradespeople. They were so inexperienced that they didn't know any better. Plus the friend/business line blurring could cause huge problems.