Sign off hurdle to overcome. If you are still building read this.

[Canski]

Hi all,

 

I am in the process of trying to get completion on my house and have hit a brick wall. It's concerning the 100's of photos that I took during the build. I wrongly presumed that the geolocation on an Iphone would be sufficient for the SAP assessor. We built 2 plots next to each other and the location data has been deemed to be insufficient for sign off.

 

The SAP assessor has suggested that I may be able to get an exemption from the LABC inspector in writing which they would accept. I emailed and asked him to call me this time last week and I am still waiting for a call back so made a call to them this afternoon and the lady who answers the phone said that this was probably not going to happen and that there was nothing they would do but she will pass my message on to him. 

 

Without the 'as built' sign off from the SAP assessor I can't get completion from Building Control and without that and the EPC I can't get the warranty put in place. Any suggestions.

[Alan Ambrose]

A new SAP assessor maybe?

[Canski]

11 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

A new SAP assessor maybe?

 

I thought that and then thought  that they will still require the photographic evidence in the prescribed format. If it is of any use to others the SAP assessor (now) recommends using an app called My Site Witness  https://www.mysitewitness.com/download. Unfortunately this wasn't suggested before we started building.

[Mr Punter]

Would it help if you referenced each of the photos, date, time, adding plot number, lat, long and altitude from the iphone data, and note (like "cavity closer") so it presents the same information as the app?  I cannot see how slightly inaccurate geolocation entirely invalidates the evidence you have.

[-rick-]

The site refers to meeting the needs of approved document L appendix B. Having just read that I can't see why your photos do not meet the standard.

 

All the app does is stamp the image with the information that is embedded in the metadata. If the assesor isn't happy accessing the meta data how about using a program to extract that data and overlay it on the images. With a little scripting you could even make the last modified date on the files match the original. Not looked but I suspect you could script something like infranview to do this without too much trouble (ask ChatGPT?).

 

Without cryptographic attestation there is no way that there is any way anything could be enforced. Worst case your assessor doesn't accept and look for another with the modified images and don't tell them you modified them by adding the overlay.

[-rick-]

I'm sure there was a previous thread with a similar issue but I can't find it right now.

 

What I did find is this one:

 

 

Which includes the attached PDF that suggests geolocation embedded in the image is ok. It does suggest that the file name of each photo includes which plot though. Something you could handle with some tedious work if needed.

 

 

Technical_Bulletin_A_Guide_to_Photographic_Evidence_for_New_Homes (1).pdf

[nod]

42 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

A new SAP assessor maybe?

Absolutely 

plus 1 

The ones we’ve used are online  no photos are required 

 

 

[nod]

Call tomorrow Done by Friday 

[ADLIan]

Photo evidence of insulation, detailing, junctions etc has been part of latest Regs, in force for last 3 years. One of the reasons I got out of energy assessments - SAP assessor is now seen as the bad guy when it is really a BCO issue. You need to take it up with your BCO to see if he’ll offer some form of waiver/relaxation of the Regs

[Canski]

12 hours ago, ADLIan said:

Photo evidence of insulation, detailing, junctions etc has been part of latest Regs, in force for last 3 years. One of the reasons I got out of energy assessments - SAP assessor is now seen as the bad guy when it is really a BCO issue. You need to take it up with your BCO to see if he’ll offer some form of waiver/relaxation of the Regs

Thanks for this. I’m trying to but he hasn’t responded in a week. 

[kandgmitchell]

Knowing some self builds take a while, when did you start work? Before 15/6/2023?

[Canski]

15 minutes ago, kandgmitchell said:

Knowing some self builds take a while, when did you start work? Before 15/6/2023?

No I got held up with bat surveys so didn’t start until 07/23 I’m on the new regs. 

[Oz07]

What a joke you've got the photos but they wont accept because the location data is not right?! What are you supposed to do if you're a luddite hold a card up next to the detail when taking a photo and detail the location? No wonder everything's knackered. @nod were you on new or old regs?

[-rick-]

@Canski is the location data in the photos simply not accurate enough to figure out which site the photo was taken in or is the person just not willing to look at it?

 

If the former, can you say with certainty based on something else where the photos were taken?

[Canski]

17 minutes ago, -rick- said:

@Canski is the location data in the photos simply not accurate enough to figure out which site the photo was taken in or is the person just not willing to look at it?

 

If the former, can you say with certainty based on something else where the photos were taken?

The location data on the photos is only visible to me. I can't embed it on the photos that I sent. I saw someone else here had just sent a PDF file with the photos and they got passed ok so that is what I did. The location data on my phone is fairly accurate but not to the extent that it can differentiate between the 2 plots that are built next to each other with a min 3m gap between them. I don't have a couple of photos that they require, one is of cavity wall insulation at the junction with the DPC. Anyone who knows me here knows how anal I am about correctly installed cavity wall insulation with no gaps. Maybe I was concentrating on conveying that message too much rather than taking photos. Some of the photos show the location of other buildings etc. in the background but not all of them. Such a simple but time consuming mistake. I wish that I had been better advised abut the photos at the beginning.

[nod]

1 hour ago, Oz07 said:

What a joke you've got the photos but they wont accept because the location data is not right?! What are you supposed to do if you're a luddite hold a card up next to the detail when taking a photo and detail the location? No wonder everything's knackered. @nod were you on new or old regs?

I think they came under old regs from memory Though the Sap guy didn’t ask when he quoted 

It’s such a nonsense You could tell them anything I updated all the insulation levels Or did I just make that up Theres no way of knowing 

 

 

[Kelvin]

What a pia. I’m in the final stages of getting the completion certificate. I got the as built SAP EPC a few weeks ago. I have shedloads of pictures of every stage of the build but I don’t think they would meet this high bar. This is going to catch a lot of people out. 

[Canski]

1 minute ago, Kelvin said:

What a pia. I’m in the final stages of getting the completion certificate. I got the as built SAP EPC a few weeks ago. I have shedloads of pictures of every stage of the build but I don’t think they would meet this high bar. This is going to catch a lot of people out. 

were you on the new regs ? Did your SAP assessor not ask for Geo located photos ?

[Kelvin]

1 minute ago, nod said:

I think they came under old regs from memory Though the Sap guy didn’t ask when he quoted 

It’s such a nonsense You could tell them anything I updated all the insulation levels Or did I just make that up Theres no way of knowing 

 

 

Hence the requirement for these pictures as documentary evidence. 
 

The BCO attended our site at the key stages and signed it off. 

[Kelvin]

38 minutes ago, Canski said:

were you on the new regs ? Did your SAP assessor not ask for Geo located photos ?

They didn’t. I had them all ready to send just in case.  We’re in Scotland and the new regs didn’t come into force until 1 Feb 2023 so still SAP 2012. 
 

I have geo tagging switched off on my phone. I thought geotagging  wasn’t mandatory but you have to show they are unique to the house?
 

eta Just quickly glanced through the SAP10 conventions document and it says in there geo location ‘should’ be enabled. Should and must mean different things. It also has a very detailed list of how to take photos of each build element. I’m glad I missed all of this! I assume the issue is because there are two buildings? 

Edited 13 hours ago by Kelvin

[-rick-]

1 hour ago, Canski said:

The location data on the photos is only visible to me. I can't embed it on the photos that I sent.

 

There are ways you could do this, but it sounds like this isn't your only issue. First useful thing I found when I searched, there will be easier ways: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3946145

 

31 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

I thought geotagging  wasn’t mandatory but you have to show they are unique to the house? 

 

1 hour ago, Canski said:

The location data on my phone is fairly accurate but not to the extent that it can differentiate between the 2 plots that are built next to each other with a min 3m gap between them. ... Some of the photos show the location of other buildings etc. in the background but not all of them.

 

Can you infer the building from the sequence they were taken in? I would expect if you go through the pictures numbering and labelling things it might be possible to show the route you walked the building and thus where the photos are.

 

1 hour ago, Canski said:

I don't have a couple of photos that they require, one is of cavity wall insulation at the junction with the DPC.

 

This seems like the bigger deal than the geotagging. How thoroughly have you checked? Maybe something is visible in the background of another photo or maybe a walk around video (if you took them). How would it affect your SAP score if this was assumed to be the default value? (I thought it was possible to move forward on that basis but I might be misunderstanding).

 

That all said, the easier option is to find someone willing to work with what you have without a fuss if thats possible.

Edited 13 hours ago by -rick-

[Temp]

There are quite a few programs that can edit embedded data. Think some can change location data. Perhaps try something like EXIFtool?

 

Obviously work on copies to keep the originals unmodified.

 

[nod]

5 hours ago, Kelvin said:

Hence the requirement for these pictures as documentary evidence. 
 

The BCO attended our site at the key stages and signed it off. 

You don’t need pictures for BC or Sap 

[Kelvin]

You do for SAP 10 assessment and EPC in England since June 2022 and Scotland since February 2023. It was changed because you could just make it up as you said and to bridge the gap between as designed and as built. 

[Oz07]

39 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

You do for SAP 10 assessment and EPC in England since June 2022 and Scotland since February 2023. It was changed because you could just make it up as you said and to bridge the gap between as designed and as built. 

As if there wasn't enough regulation around building houses. I doubt the big builders have to comply with this. No doubt they will have some scene where they do it with 1 house type then every other build of that type is automatically approved.