What's the case for not getting an ASHP?

[Roger440]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

So you don't think that the recent rise in food prices has anything to do with climate change.

Or the imminent collapse of North Atlantic white fish.

 

How about reservoir water levels?

Or road depredation due to thermal cycling.

 

If you think that the UK has no global influence, you must have forgotten about our global insurance industry, that pays out £bn.

And our investment banks that finance energy projects  globally.

Then there is our Met Office, Exeter University, the Hadley Centre that disseminated climate information to governments, globally.

 

Is that enough about the UKs global influence?

Or are you still stuck in the 1850s with the Brunels building railways across the globe with British steel and determination (back by British fire power).

 

The British just about invented globalisation, so no point saying this island is irrelevant, the environmental harm caused will have to be paid for, and if that means, as one of the wealthiest nations the earth has ever known, we have to pay 7% of our median income rather than 5%, to keep houses over heater, so be it. It is better that the alternative

 

Facts, not perception, is reality.

 

Im not sure you read or understood what i said. 

 

Climate change is real. I have eyes, i can see.

 

Its the idea that we are going to stop it thats a fantasy. The idea that paying out extra dosh will somehow stop or reduce the effects is bonkers.

 

We should be spending money to prepare for the inevitable, not spending money to try and stop it.

 

Sadly, we will go bankrupt trying to stop it. Im pretty convinced of that.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Its the idea that we are going to stop it thats a fantasy. The idea that paying out extra dosh will somehow stop or reduce the effects is bonkers.

 

We should be spending money to prepare for the inevitable, not spending money to try and stop it.

Can I suggest that you go to university and study Climate Change, its mitigations and costs.

 

I did.

Edited 14 hours ago by SteamyTea

[JohnMo]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Can I suggest that you go to university and study Climate Change, its mitigations and costs.

 

I did.

So did I, that was 20+ years ago. Interesting the facts then, are the facts now. But people still don't want to or will not get it. Politics doesn't want to know, if one side or the other gets them votes or money in the election fund box, that's the side they ultimately fall towards. Doesn't really matter what correct so long as they have some power.

[JamesPa]

18 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

But people still don't want to or will not get it. 

In fairness only some people, 'led' in many cases by those whose selfish interests incentivise them to foist half truths or pure lies on the public.  We only have to look to the other side of the Atlantic to see how pure lies can seduce a lot of people (I'm probably now excluded from getting a visa to visit the USA as a result of that comment).  Quite why people don't understand that they should treat any statements by people who stand to benefit from those statements with suspicion I have never understood.

18 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Politics doesn't want to know, if one side or the other gets them votes or money in the election fund box, that's the side they ultimately fall towards. Doesn't really matter what correct so long as they have some power.

That's one of the failings of democracy, particularly if you have a gullible, undereducated population (many of whom can't be bothered to get educated about these matters) and vested interests to a large extent in control of the media spouting misinformation.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is unfortunately, other than a benevolent dictatorship which is an oxymoron in the long term.  However I am sure that those who do understand it have, at least arguably, a duty to correct the misinformation when they have the opportunity.

 

 

Edited 14 hours ago by JamesPa

[-rick-]

6 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

I'm not sure what the solution is unfortunately, other than a benevolent dictatorship which is an oxymoron in the long term.  However I am sure that those who do understand it have, at least arguably, a duty to correct the misinformation when they have the opportunity.

 

I'm very pesimistic at least in the near term about the ability of politicians in the west to solve anything (not advocating for dictatorship - that would be worse). That said, just because our leaders are failing doesn't mean as individuals we shouldn't be taking all the steps we reasonable can to minimise our personal impact where we can. Things like heatpumps and solar for many people will be cost neutral or actively save money so that is the obvious choice. Where the maths doesn't add up there are other things to do instead where it does add up.

 

In good news I read the other day that China's emissions have now plateaued. They are rolling out solar at an incredible rate and it's making a real difference. If they maintain that rate for a few years they will likely shame all of us with the speed of their transition to a low carbon economy (with the downside that they will then be at a huge competitive advantage going forward).

[DamonHD]

17 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Because of what he had been told OP asked what the argument was against ashps and has a broken boiler. Presumably the question related to his own situation, not whether they are a 'one size fits all ' solution.  Some on here have basically said, without evidence or  reasoning so far as I can see,  that they are not suitable in almost any retrofit case. 

 

To confirm: lots of research in the UK in the field (eg Energy Saving Trust, Energy Systems Catapult, others) has shown that there is simply no type or age of dwelling that can't have a successful retrofit, though some awkward cases will be awkward.

 

And indeed making the retrofit by 2050 of ~20M UK gas boilers with (mainly) heat pumps work well is the topic of my research.

 

FWIW I only replaced one rad when I upgraded to a heat pump at the end of last year.

Edited 13 hours ago by DamonHD

[SteamyTea]

28 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

So did I, that was 20+ years ago. Interesting the facts then, are the facts now

Same facts as 150 years ago.

How a heat engine works was formulated at a similar time.

 

It does depend which people you ask about climate change.

Ask someone from an area that has had a long draught, or flood, and they may give a different reply.

 

About 15 years ago I was shown a climate projection for Europe. Basically the temperatures in all areas would be higher, but more extreme the further east you went. There would be greater rainfall as well.

As it was an ensemble projection, it was not just one lucky guess. Shown that the science was well understood then.

 

Part of the reason that electricity prices are high is that the price structure was set up to encourage investment in RE. For the UK this has worked well (about 50% of the energy is from RE), the problem is that there was not better monitoring, decisions making and control of the marginal pricing, so it is probably time to radically change the system.

 

Or just put a realistic CO_2e tax in place.

[JamesPa]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

 

Or just put a realistic CO_2e tax in place.

Now that's a tax I would definitely support.

[MrPotts]

12 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

Id suggest ludicrous electricity connection quotes are not an "outlier" if this forum is anything to go by. Its a regular topic on here. That most on here can afford multiple tens of thousands for their supply, doesnt make it reasonable.

 

I only refer to the barn as its nearer to the house. The house is 200 ft away. Lets call it a connection to the house.  But it would still be £20k.

 

Had our government adopted such a short termist view back when it decided to make electricity available across the nation, no one outside big towns and cities would have got electricity. Fortunately, they were a bit more forward thinking.

 

Meanwhile, i will struggle on with my 60 amp supply. Not expecting sympathy, its my problem and my problem alone, but dont try to suggest government is serious or suggest i should be paying for the worlds problems (yes, i know that wasnt you)

 

Have they fixed the nonsense of linking renewables prices to gas? Thought not. A more relevant example that affects everyone of us. Which if fixed would transform the economics of ASHP's to being a no brainer.

 

 

If electricity prices were the same as gas prices then would the case for an expensive heat pump diminish in favour of a direct replacement of a gas boiler with a much cheaper electric boiler?

Then there would be no need to change radiators, pipework or the HW cylinder and no need to give away £7.5k of tax payers money per install. In fact the money could be used to provide the electric boiler for free!

Edited 13 hours ago by MrPotts

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

Now that's a tax I would definitely support.

I think if it was at the individual, rather than the corporate, level, then a lot of people would make changes.

Just hiking the price of the product has probably not made a huge reduction in usage (usage reduction is the key at the moment), and it has been totally blamed, in Joe Public's eye, on the situation in Ukraine. There are probably a few million people in the UK that think that Ukraine should surrender to Russia as they have convinced themselves that if they do, they will halve their bills.

 

A Big Mac costs around £5.80, it has 2127 kJ of energy, 0.6 kWh.

That is £9.66/kWh.

Electricity, deliver to your home is £0.25/kWh.

Beer is almost £20/kWh.

Probably best not to take advice in a MaccyDs or your mates in the pub.

[ProDave]

I will add my thoughts to this thread.

 

I have an ASHP and am happy with it.  It was really my only choice on a new build.  Mains gas is not available here (if it was a gas boiler would have been given serious consideration)  and I did not want an oil tank to feed an oil boiler.  I paid for my ASHP myself and self installed it and cost was similar if not perhaps a bit cheaper than the oil option.

 

It;s been running for something in excess if 5 years with only 1 fault, a bearing on the fan motor, which I replaced myself.

 

I am yet to be convinced it is actually any cheaper to run that a modern condensing gas boiler would have been and still of the opinion anyone being "sold" as ASHP as a replacement for an existing system expecting much lower running costs might be in for a disappointment.  It is the insulation levels and air tightness that give my house the low running costs.

 

So you might think it is a good idea for everyone to swap their fossil fuel boilers for an ASHP.  Lets think about that (ignoring for the moment if we all did it straight away the electricity grid would collapse)

 

What is not to like about an ASHP.  Well nothing when they are working.  BUT I doubt they will all keep working forever with no repairs.

 

Your gas boiler goes wrong, and there are plenty of people that can come and fix it, they understand them, parts are available and easy to swap.  All very good.

 

Your ASHP goes wrong.  Who is going to fix it?  Not so many people around that can do that.  I consider myself educated and understand electrical things so a lot I could do myself, but not everything.

 

So your ASHP fails, it's a critical part, part not available or nobody willing to fit it?  Oh you will need a new one sir.  Now most people will probably have received a grant (and still paid a lot of £££ on top) to have the first one installed.  I bet if it has failed out of warranty they will be offered a replacement, but oh sorry no grant, this replacement is going to cost you even more ££££.

 

If you change for a different make, it won't be like swapping to a different make of boiler (where controls are fairly standard) you will likely need a lot of electrical alterations as the electrical control scheme from one ASHP to another can be very different.

 

I don't know how we resolve that, but where we want to be is some form of common electrical control interface (like boilers) where it is easy to swap from one make to another.  A LOT more people with the skills to service and repair them, at sensible prices, i.e. at a similar hourly rate to plumbers at the moment.  Better availablilty of spares at a sensible price.

 

I think the present MCS / BUS grant scheme and the way it is being applied at the moment leaving customers still with a large bill, is doing immense damage to the reputation of heat pumps,  Something has to change.

 

Until it is possible to get a heat pump installed as simply and cheaply as a gas boiler, and until servicing and repair is similarly easy and cheap, I will not be recommending any friend of mine to get an ASHP fitted, as I don't want to lose friends when / if it goes wrong and costs them a lot of money.

 

 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

people still don't want to or will not get it. 

Agreed except that:

I'm thinking of an individual who would shout out loud that "global warming" was a hoax, because "look out the window there is snow". That was 20 years ago.

Now will equally spout about climate change being a great concern. There is no depth of knowledge but his views have reversed. Based on a dribble of information or perhaps from s person he listens to.

 

Likewise we don't hear many moans about having to recycle these days.

And apparently the hosepipe and how to save water advice are making a difference.

 

Multiply that by millions of people and things can improve.

We must do what little we can.

 

On politics: there are good people who we seldom hear from, but they have a vote and can plug away at the career politicians who we do hear from.

 

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Can I suggest that you go to university and study Climate Change, its mitigations and costs.

 

I did.

Again, you misundestand my point.

 

Let's assume all the research is 100% correct. Great. 

 

Chances of the world adopting the outcomes of that research. None. Never going to happen. 

 

You want people to be significantly poorer, to reduce their quality of life,  for intangible benefits at some unknown point in the future at an unknown cost.

 

Humans don't work like that.

 

Especially when we all know, those in power will disapply any such pain from themselves.

 

That's the real world. You might not like it, but it's how it is.

[Roger440]

26 minutes ago, MrPotts said:

If electricity prices were the same as gas prices then would the case for an expensive heat pump diminish in favour of a direct replacement of a gas boiler with a much cheaper electric boiler?

Then there would be no need to change radiators, pipework or the HW cylinder and no need to give away £7.5k of tax payers money per install. In fact the money could be used to provide the electric boiler for free!

Steady with those outbreaks if common sense. Government could sort out the false market forcing our electricity prices up tommorow. But they won't, as making mad money for chums is way more important than worrying about mere climate change. See post above.

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, -rick- said:

 

I'm very pesimistic at least in the near term about the ability of politicians in the west to solve anything (not advocating for dictatorship - that would be worse). That said, just because our leaders are failing doesn't mean as individuals we shouldn't be taking all the steps we reasonable can to minimise our personal impact where we can. Things like heatpumps and solar for many people will be cost neutral or actively save money so that is the obvious choice. Where the maths doesn't add up there are other things to do instead where it does add up.

 

In good news I read the other day that China's emissions have now plateaued. They are rolling out solar at an incredible rate and it's making a real difference. If they maintain that rate for a few years they will likely shame all of us with the speed of their transition to a low carbon economy (with the downside that they will then be at a huge competitive advantage going forward).

Heat pumps and solar panels absolutely are not cost neutral for most people if they already have a house with heating and power. 

 

Suggesting otherwise is complete nonsense.

 

If it was, literally everyone would be doing it. 

 

The actual reality is payback periods are long and uncertain, and require considerable upfront costs

 

Let's not try to pretend otherwise.

[Roger440]

22 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I will add my thoughts to this thread.

 

I have an ASHP and am happy with it.  It was really my only choice on a new build.  Mains gas is not available here (if it was a gas boiler would have been given serious consideration)  and I did not want an oil tank to feed an oil boiler.  I paid for my ASHP myself and self installed it and cost was similar if not perhaps a bit cheaper than the oil option.

 

It;s been running for something in excess if 5 years with only 1 fault, a bearing on the fan motor, which I replaced myself.

 

I am yet to be convinced it is actually any cheaper to run that a modern condensing gas boiler would have been and still of the opinion anyone being "sold" as ASHP as a replacement for an existing system expecting much lower running costs might be in for a disappointment.  It is the insulation levels and air tightness that give my house the low running costs.

 

So you might think it is a good idea for everyone to swap their fossil fuel boilers for an ASHP.  Lets think about that (ignoring for the moment if we all did it straight away the electricity grid would collapse)

 

What is not to like about an ASHP.  Well nothing when they are working.  BUT I doubt they will all keep working forever with no repairs.

 

Your gas boiler goes wrong, and there are plenty of people that can come and fix it, they understand them, parts are available and easy to swap.  All very good.

 

Your ASHP goes wrong.  Who is going to fix it?  Not so many people around that can do that.  I consider myself educated and understand electrical things so a lot I could do myself, but not everything.

 

So your ASHP fails, it's a critical part, part not available or nobody willing to fit it?  Oh you will need a new one sir.  Now most people will probably have received a grant (and still paid a lot of £££ on top) to have the first one installed.  I bet if it has failed out of warranty they will be offered a replacement, but oh sorry no grant, this replacement is going to cost you even more ££££.

 

If you change for a different make, it won't be like swapping to a different make of boiler (where controls are fairly standard) you will likely need a lot of electrical alterations as the electrical control scheme from one ASHP to another can be very different.

 

I don't know how we resolve that, but where we want to be is some form of common electrical control interface (like boilers) where it is easy to swap from one make to another.  A LOT more people with the skills to service and repair them, at sensible prices, i.e. at a similar hourly rate to plumbers at the moment.  Better availablilty of spares at a sensible price.

 

I think the present MCS / BUS grant scheme and the way it is being applied at the moment leaving customers still with a large bill, is doing immense damage to the reputation of heat pumps,  Something has to change.

 

Until it is possible to get a heat pump installed as simply and cheaply as a gas boiler, and until servicing and repair is similarly easy and cheap, I will not be recommending any friend of mine to get an ASHP fitted, as I don't want to lose friends when / if it goes wrong and costs them a lot of money.

 

 

Dave says sensible real world things.

[Dillsue]

2 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

It IS a domestic connection. Ive tried everything. Point blank refusal on the basis there only 2 properties on the transformer. Pay up or dont have it.

 

Their policy document outlines their justification.

 

I have no further argument to make. They make the rules.

 

The heat pump and EV charger angle did not work. If i want those things i will need to generate my own power.

From the ENA website-

 

 GB DNOs will give you what you need to decarbonise your home for free, up to a 23kVA cable.

 

I beleive thats bigger than a 60amp supply. Maybe you're presenting your case in the wrong way??

 

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

You want people to be significantly poorer, to reduce their quality of life,  for intangible benefits at some unknown point in the future at an unknown cost.

Could you show me some recent research to back that up.

I fail to see how increasing the percentage of the cheapest forms of electrical generation, which also has environmental improvements makes things more expensive and more damaging.

We have target dates for many energy generation types (why we don't burn coal in power stations in the UK, or do you think we still do), we also have environmental targets that are backed up with criminal convictions.

 

So we have a cheaper technology, a more environmentally benign technology, money to pay for it, targets to reach, laws and sanctions if we don't, but you, who has not studied the subject, claims to know that it will all fail.

Next time you need something done, say surgery, wall built, or a sandwich made, go and find the cheapest, unqualified, under equipped and ignorant person you can find to do it.

Let us all know how it went.

[Andehh]

On 20/08/2025 at 20:12, kentar said:

My boiler has died and I'm able to get a new ASHP installed via government grant. I have few concerns and i'd like some advice.

My property is early 1900's solid wall construction. The loft has been insulated up to standard 10 years ago. New UPVC double glazing was fitted less than 5 years ago. The heating system is a mixture of new, old and really old. All pipe runs to the rads are 15mm, likely branching off a 22mm main (unverified).

 

Firstly, everyone's telling me not to. Only one person I know has had one. I don't have any details about his system or installation, but he moved into a new house which had one and found it to be unsuitable because it was taking too long to heat the water after the DHW cylinder had emptied and meant having more than one consecutive shower was not possible. It was therefore replaced with a gas boiler.

 

A couple of other concerns of mine are placement and noise. I'd prefer to mount mine high up on the wall against my house, as close as possible to the hot water cylinder on the first floor. This will be around 2m from my neighbours house. Is this possible? How noisy will it be?

If it's not doable, can I have it placed at the end of the garden, around 20m away from the existing boiler? The boiler currently resides in the kitchen, with the hot water cylinder directly above it.

 

Thirdly, heatgeek accredited installations are supposedly regarded as the best. How much of a risk is it using someone not accredited?

 

Are there any other considerations? I'm not interested in saving a few hundred quid a year if it means that an ASHP causes more issues than it solves.

Don't get one. 

 

You will regret it. 

 

ASHP should only be considered once you've ran out of ways of insulating your house and know . You don't have sufficient insulation to really make one work without compromising your comfort in my opinion.. 

 

I love ours, and we can really maximise it's benefits... But I would dream of recommending one to a family member who wasn't willing to really lean into it properly. 

[ProDave]

33 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Could you show me some recent research to back that up.

I fail to see how increasing the percentage of the cheapest forms of electrical generation, which also has environmental improvements makes things more expensive and more damaging.

We have target dates for many energy generation types (why we don't burn coal in power stations in the UK, or do you think we still do), we also have environmental targets that are backed up with criminal convictions.

No, but telling consumers more wind turbines = cheaper electricity prices, yet with no plan to restructure pricing so it is not set by the gas price, is setting consumers up to be let down when electricity prises do not fall.

 

No wonder people want to do the opposite of what they are told, they simply no longer believe what they are told.

[-rick-]

30 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Heat pumps and solar panels absolutely are not cost neutral for most people if they already have a house with heating and power. 

I'm certainly not suggesting anyone replace a working system which is not due for replacement except maybe for those who have spare cash and who could realise large savings by switching (a relatively small group)

 

However, if you have a system that is end of life and in need of replacement then for many people a heat pump will be cost neutral vs a replacement boiler (once you consider the BUS scheme). My replacement boiler cost £3.5k a few years ago - I had looked at heatpumps but it was too difficult to organise in my flat). Even with the MCS daylight robbery £11k (3.5k + 7.5k BUS grant) is enough for radiator, DHW tank and heatpump install in many many properties and the running costs should be similar for any well installed system. To be clear, the vast majority of properties won't need electrical upgrades and most can reuse pipework.

 

30 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

The actual reality is payback periods are long and uncertain, and require considerable upfront costs

 

For heatpumps as above I don't think there is a payback period. For many it should be a straight choice heatpump vs boiler for similar upfront cost. Running costs should be similar for a normal system. Ideal world you can make on going savings on cost but lets assume most installs are not ideal or have people willing to tweak them.

 

As for solar, again, if you are having roofing work done then the cost of putting panels up is low and in some cases (integrated GSE panels on a slate roof) might be very similar cost to not having solar. Then for the next 20 years you pay a lower electricity bill. The payoff for this is very positive. Putting solar on a good roof as an add on is a higher cost and payback longer. It works out well for many people but you do need the upfront capital and if you have limited resources there might be better ways to spend your money.

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

yet with no plan to restructure pricing

There will be plans about that.

Just does not make very interesting news.

 

Whenever change is mooted, it is not unusual for an ignorant minority to become very vocal.

Sadly they get uncritically listened to.

[ProDave]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

There will be plans about that.

Just does not make very interesting news.

 

Whenever change is mooted, it is not unusual for an ignorant minority to become very vocal.

Sadly they get uncritically listened to.

I just think it has got to the point that nobody believes a word a PM says.  Any PM of any flavour.  For too long they have said lots of good words and not delivered.  So until we see electricity prices actually coming down, however they achieve that, a lot of people will think like me, that it's all building up to another broken promise.

 

I hope I am proven wrong this time.

[SteamyTea]

@ProDave

 

There you go, a few seconds googling.

 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-is-cheap-renewable-electricity-so-expensive/

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I just think it has got to the point that nobody believes a word a PM says

Certainly worked for the Brexit campaign.