How to regain traction...

[Mulberry View]

Some of you know the woes we face with our Zinc Roof. The first major contractor on site and it all ended in disaster. You can read more about it here. It's trundling slowly down the legal pathway and is likely to take a long time because the contractor is simply not cooperating at all.

 

But I need to be able establish a plan to progress as it's causing me a lot of anxiety. The house build is my occupation and to not be able to move on at any pace is giving me a sense of failure and not helping my self esteem at all. I'm finding bits and pieces to do, but we certainly face ANOTHER winter in the Caravan after SWMBO saying that Christmas 2024 was the last she'd do in the Caravan.

 

In a nutshell, we paid £20k for an Architectural package that got us to RIBA Stage 4a (Building Regs Plans), but the relationship with our Architect broke right down towards the end of that and, in some ways, we were glad because it was the biggest stressor. However, I do attribute the lack of an Architect as to why the roof went the way it did. Had I known how hard our roof would be to detail and how many worrying elements we would be stuck with, we would have pushed back. But what would that have meant for the design we were overall happy with and we had planning approval on? Maybe a total redesign.

 

So we went for it, we trusted an expert who assured us that any missing details would be taken care of by their "superior experience". He had so much to say about how it wouldn't have mattered if the Architect had detailed it, they know best where Zinc is concerned. We felt confident. Cutting a long story short, I honestly think the whole lot heeds to come off and a different system used. VM Zinc just don't offer a nice detail for rooflights in a 5° Monopitch without a tonne of solder.

My question is, what did we do wrong? Should we have had an Architect produce a full set of technical details ahead of tender? Should we have relied on a specialist installer but with drawings to sign off before work started? I'm trying to foresee how to get out of the hole we're in because the problems have to be fixed, regardless of the court outcome. The advice I'm seeking is not about what to do with the legal stuff, but how we can get things moving on site again.

Should I be trying to get another Architect or Architectural Technician onto the project to re-design and detail the roof? Or can I rely on a metal roof installation company to provide the full detail package within their quote? In essence, I need to know that a good outcome is guaranteed because it feels hard to commit to the big ticket items (Windows etc) without knowing where we stand and that the design can even be roofed reliably. I also realise that if we go any further with the internal works (Insulation/UFH/Screed), the scaffolding for the re-roof might then have to be a top-hat (££££££££).

 

A part of me knows that we eventually need to take the original Architect to court, but with the roof action going on and the project as a whole, there's no way I can contend with that at the moment, even though I know that if it was to swing in our favour, the outcome could mean an answer to all this mess.

 

Hoping for some rational and practical help from the good chaps and chapesses of Buildhub!

[Russell griffiths]

Just remember this, taking someone to court and winning, does not necessarily get you any money. 
 

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

Just remember this, taking someone to court and winning, does not necessarily get you any money. 
 

 

That's totally the conversation the Wife and I have just had. At this point, we have two choices, pay for the roof to be stripped and done again (that would consume about a quarter of our remaining already tight budget), or chance it in court.

What would you do?! ☠️

[Temp]

I think I would try and find an independent expert. Hire him just to do a report on what you have and see if its salvageable. If not perhaps have him propose a new design. Maybe even manage that bit of the project.  You may need an expert opinion/report to stand any chance in court anyway. Finding someone might be hard. Is there a governing body or similar?

[Mulberry View]

5 minutes ago, Temp said:

I think I would try and find an independent expert. Hire him just to do a report on what you have and see if its salvageable. If not perhaps have him propose a new design. Maybe even manage that bit of the project.  You may need an expert opinion/report to stand any chance in court anyway. Finding someone might be hard. Is there a governing body or similar?

 

We're totally minded on getting an Expert Witness, but have been advised to get a bit further into the legal action first. Which we hope will be within a few weeks.

 

Whether that expert will be the one who we rely on for Zinc roof specifics I don't really know, but I do think it will cross over in any case.

 

As for a Governing body, we were told it's the FTMRC (Federation of Traditional Metal Roofing Contractors), but it turns out they're not really a proper governing body, so who knows. Hopefully that will emerge in the legal journey.

[Russell griffiths]

7 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

 

That's totally the conversation the Wife and I have just had. At this point, we have two choices, pay for the roof to be stripped and done again (that would consume about a quarter of our remaining already tight budget), or chance it in court.

What would you do?! ☠️

You can go to court, you can win, but getting funds from someone who knows they might lose is hard as it’s easy to move funds or close companies. 
a court case could take a year and nobody freezes the assets until the outcome, you just hope there’s something there at the end. 

[Russell griffiths]

Are you unhappy with the whole roof, I thought it was a couple of upstands around a window that where being difficult. 

[Bonner]

To move forward, I would suggest you need two parties; an independent ‘expert’ who acts for you and a competent metal roof contractor. The independent may be another architect or technician who can survey the existing issues and propose practical solutions. When you are in this position it is difficult to be pragmatic, maybe there is no ‘elegant’ solution for some of the details and you will have to compromise. 
Looking back, I am largely echoing what @Temp has suggested

Edited Wednesday at 07:06 by Bonner

[ToughButterCup]

11 hours ago, Mulberry View said:

...

. The advice I'm seeking is not about what to do with the legal stuff, but how we can get things moving on site again.

...

 

This is unbelievably difficult. But something has to give.

What? Only you can decide.

 

Spend your money on;

* technical advice.

* SWMBO comfort 

* A SMART plan (Short Measured Achievable Relevant Tmebound)

 

You have a roof. It's not leaking. Am I right?

 

Get on with the rest of the house. Roof (top hat or no) can come later with mature reflection. 

 

Nothing about self building is ideal. 10 years into a 3 year project has taught me that. 

 

[Nick Laslett]

Hello, @Mulberry View, I was on a long drive yesterday and was thinking about you and your situation. I was worried about your morale and thinking of sending you a positive message. And then this post popped up today. 
 

If you can, you have to keep making progress. In the situation where the outcome of the build falls on your shoulders, then you have to move forward. Your situation is a classic project issue, where mistakes create inertia and the whole thing grinds to a halt until this one aspect of the project is resolved. 
 

On our build, I was unable to successfully fit inward opening aluminium French doors in one of the upstairs bedrooms. I ripped them out and hired the guys who fitted the front and back doors to fit them. They did struggle, and I think the frame might not have been straight. It was difficult to know if I should have gotten the manufacturer involved and replaced them. Anyway time moved on and it became clear that the French doors leaked when there was rain with a fierce wind from a southerly direction. This probably happens 4 - 5 days a year for our specific house. The inward opening design doesn’t help with the water tightness. At this point the external rendering had been done and it was the following Autumn that the leaking became obvious.
 

To remove the French door now was going to have an impact to the rendering. So I added additional gaskets to the door seals to stop the driving rain leak and drilled extra drain holes in the sill to move the water quicker. This does seemed to have fixed the problem when I tested with water from a garden hose. But looking at the doors more closely, it is clear that they don’t fit the frame correctly, and whether this was caused during the fitting process or during manufacturing is unclear. Basically this specific large aluminium French door is not stiff enough for its intended purpose. These really need to be crittall steel style French doors, which is what we wanted but was way over our budget. I resolved that at some future point we would possibly revisit this issue and replace the door with a better one.
 

We have three more French doors downstairs, but outward opening this time. But I have a sneaky suspicion that when I have my air tightness test they will all leak, outside their spec. I can imagine it would be pretty difficult after all this time to get the manufacturer to take them all back and replace them with better made doors that meet the design spec for air ingress. This is just one of the many flaws that occurred in the building of our house. That might one day be addressed. 
 

I appreciate that the situation with your roof is slightly different, but perhaps parking the problem and moving on with the rest of the build is an option. There is no right decision, but only the one you can best live with. The hardest thing is to reconcile these issues in your own mind, when you try to explain your decisions to other people they would think you were mad, but during the build process it is rarely possible to make the right decision at the right time that will pass the test of hindsight, or the judgment of others. 
 

I have a more prosaic take on the build process and sometimes even BuildHub can make you feel that everyone is building perfect houses, that they are happy with. This is not the case, and flaws and compromises are everywhere. 
 

*Edit: I think @ToughButterCup nailed what I took paragraphs to say in a few good bullet points. He is ever the guiding star for advice here. 

Edited Wednesday at 07:44 by Nick Laslett

[ToughButterCup]

The thing about BuildHub is its diversity of membership : and thus opinion. Its always an adjunct to our (your?) own thinking. Often not what you want to hear.

 

And man is that useful: because I need to know why I'm not doing what I might reasonably be expected to do

 

And Christ on a Bike self building is privileged, full of noise, stressed - but above all  lonely.

[JohnMo]

Not withstanding everything above.

 

You will have many scopes of work than can be done, need to be done, excluding the roof.

 

I would put the roof issues to one side for a day or two. It isn't going to fixed quickly. You really need to sit down and list all your jobs, then make a plan of action. Are you doing jobs or is some else. Move them in to an order that they will be tackled, and what is dependant of roof completion put to the end?

 

Only roof issues I would think about, is there any roof membrane exposed to UV? if so cover it up. That will buy time to sort the roof, without membrane being degraded by UV as well.

Edited Wednesday at 08:31 by JohnMo

[saveasteading]

Without reading back. Knowing nothing about your roof.

 

Not many architects will be expert in roof detailing.

Some roofers are remarkably ignorant of how water flows. They get away with it because people don't like heights.

 

So you've been unlucky but are not to blame.

 

I'd be surprised if you need a reroof.

 

You need a proper expert. A contractor who is looking to help, not to get a big job.

 

Where to start? The local press advertising,. But only one in 5 will be any good.

Ask at the local roofers' merchants. Beware, they only recommended customers...you want a long established one.

 

Pictures?

 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

Zinc roofing has become fashionable but decent zinc roofers are few and far between.  With rooflights, you often need to solder.  I would stick with what you have, get the facias, flashings and gutters on and the rest of the outside complete with scaffold away before the end of summer.  Get a new zinc roofing contractor and get your windows and doors ordered and fitted.

[Mulberry View]

14 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

Are you unhappy with the whole roof, I thought it was a couple of upstands around a window that where being difficult. 

 

The initial problem was the way the upstands were detailed, preventing £11k worth of Velux rooflights being fitted and this is quite serious in the sense that the only real way to remedy it is to raise the upstands, but this is a monstrous job that would involve cutting the VCL even if it was practical to achieve. As time has gone on, other defects have emerged.

 

There is a lack of any expansion room behind the rooflights, which, I am told is pretty serious. Especially as one of them has 11m of Zinc above it with a potential expansion of 15mm+ over that length. There is also an integral 5m long box gutter with only 100mm upstand along it's length, which, according to VM Zinc should be 200mm. The box gutter went in first, so it can't be remedied without drastic work.

[Mulberry View]

13 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

This is unbelievably difficult. But something has to give.

What? Only you can decide.

 

Spend your money on;

* technical advice.

* SWMBO comfort 

* A SMART plan (Short Measured Achievable Relevant Tmebound)

 

You have a roof. It's not leaking. Am I right?

 

Get on with the rest of the house. Roof (top hat or no) can come later with mature reflection. 

 

Nothing about self building is ideal. 10 years into a 3 year project has taught me that. 

 

 

You are right, the roof is largely water-tight, but we do have 3 large rooflight openings that have plastic sheeted frames over them that I battle to keep true and in place.

 

The rabbit-hole scenario with the roof could be that if the Zinc is deemed to be beyond economic repair and has to be removed, then the Insulation would also be written off because the clips fasten through thick plastic plugs, so the Celotex is peppered with significant holes (probably around 15mm diameter). Once the Insulation is removed and the VCL is revealed we run the risk of the next installer not being happy with the way the VCL was fitted and wanting that off too, god only knows how you remove that stuff without writing the Plywood off. You see how my mind works?!

 

I am very grateful for your advice though, I do want to keep moving on I am just a chronic over-thinker who is worried about getting even deeper in the proverbial you-know-what.

 

There's no doubt that I could not have got as far as I have without the good people of Buildhub. I have plenty more headscratchers in front of me yet, so brace yourselves for more! I ought to post some photos of my work so far as there are some positives hidden amongst all of this.

[Mulberry View]

13 hours ago, Nick Laslett said:

Hello, @Mulberry View, I was on a long drive yesterday and was thinking about you and your situation. I was worried about your morale and thinking of sending you a positive message. And then this post popped up today. 
 

If you can, you have to keep making progress. In the situation where the outcome of the build falls on your shoulders, then you have to move forward. Your situation is a classic project issue, where mistakes create inertia and the whole thing grinds to a halt until this one aspect of the project is resolved. 
 

On our build, I was unable to successfully fit inward opening aluminium French doors in one of the upstairs bedrooms. I ripped them out and hired the guys who fitted the front and back doors to fit them. They did struggle, and I think the frame might not have been straight. It was difficult to know if I should have gotten the manufacturer involved and replaced them. Anyway time moved on and it became clear that the French doors leaked when there was rain with a fierce wind from a southerly direction. This probably happens 4 - 5 days a year for our specific house. The inward opening design doesn’t help with the water tightness. At this point the external rendering had been done and it was the following Autumn that the leaking became obvious.
 

To remove the French door now was going to have an impact to the rendering. So I added additional gaskets to the door seals to stop the driving rain leak and drilled extra drain holes in the sill to move the water quicker. This does seemed to have fixed the problem when I tested with water from a garden hose. But looking at the doors more closely, it is clear that they don’t fit the frame correctly, and whether this was caused during the fitting process or during manufacturing is unclear. Basically this specific large aluminium French door is not stiff enough for its intended purpose. These really need to be crittall steel style French doors, which is what we wanted but was way over our budget. I resolved that at some future point we would possibly revisit this issue and replace the door with a better one.
 

We have three more French doors downstairs, but outward opening this time. But I have a sneaky suspicion that when I have my air tightness test they will all leak, outside their spec. I can imagine it would be pretty difficult after all this time to get the manufacturer to take them all back and replace them with better made doors that meet the design spec for air ingress. This is just one of the many flaws that occurred in the building of our house. That might one day be addressed. 
 

I appreciate that the situation with your roof is slightly different, but perhaps parking the problem and moving on with the rest of the build is an option. There is no right decision, but only the one you can best live with. The hardest thing is to reconcile these issues in your own mind, when you try to explain your decisions to other people they would think you were mad, but during the build process it is rarely possible to make the right decision at the right time that will pass the test of hindsight, or the judgment of others. 
 

I have a more prosaic take on the build process and sometimes even BuildHub can make you feel that everyone is building perfect houses, that they are happy with. This is not the case, and flaws and compromises are everywhere. 
 

*Edit: I think @ToughButterCup nailed what I took paragraphs to say in a few good bullet points. He is ever the guiding star for advice here. 

 

@Nick Laslett I am always grateful for your words of encouragement. I know you're right, I need to move on, if for no other reason than to complete some rewarding tasks. It is only really the fear of worsening the depth of the hole we're in, but, as @Russell griffiths has alluded to, we have to mentally prepare for every possible outcome and not pin our hopes on the most ideal one. I really cannot see how we don't have a great case and the way our Solicitor has articulated it so far is a very good sign.

 

We are close to some big decisions and I am famous for panicking just as the trigger is about to be pulled, so this isn't abnormal for me, but there is no doubt, the collective clusterf**k has really snowballed for us.

 

I hope you manage to sort all your issues, it's a dread of mine to have lasting problems as the very reason we took this project on was because I could never get over the weaknesses in the fabric of the 1920's bungalow we renovated before this and hoped we could achieve perfection, which I now know to be an unrealistic expectation!

[Mulberry View]

12 hours ago, JohnMo said:

Not withstanding everything above.

 

You will have many scopes of work than can be done, need to be done, excluding the roof.

 

I would put the roof issues to one side for a day or two. It isn't going to fixed quickly. You really need to sit down and list all your jobs, then make a plan of action. Are you doing jobs or is some else. Move them in to an order that they will be tackled, and what is dependant of roof completion put to the end?

 

Only roof issues I would think about, is there any roof membrane exposed to UV? if so cover it up. That will buy time to sort the roof, without membrane being degraded by UV as well.

 

Thanks @JohnMo. It makes sense. There are things I am getting on with, but always with a level of reservation and dread about where this could all go.

The roof is reasonably secure, it is 99% water-tight, save for large bit of plastic sheeting that protects the incomplete box gutter flashing (the flashing renders our roof technically 'incomplete' and therefore the final payment is not legitimately due). This sheeting disintegrated in the uncharacteristic winds we had earlier this week, but I've replaced that now and I think it'll last. The slight worry is that if we did crack on inside and any of the covers over the rooflights were to fail, we risk damage to the internal work. The covers have been made fairly robustly using 4x2 timber frames covered with UV-stable Polytunnel sheeting. Pigeons have pecked holes in the rooflight cover over the rooflight in our upper 2-storey roof. I need to get up there and remedy that, but with no scaffolding, I'm scared to make that climb.

 

With occasional help, I am the only person working on this. The Zinc contractor was the first and, so far, only major external contractor. We could not have afforded to do this without being true self-builders, hence the roof issue could really sink us.

[Mulberry View]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Without reading back. Knowing nothing about your roof.

 

Not many architects will be expert in roof detailing.

Some roofers are remarkably ignorant of how water flows. They get away with it because people don't like heights.

 

So you've been unlucky but are not to blame.

 

I'd be surprised if you need a reroof.

 

You need a proper expert. A contractor who is looking to help, not to get a big job.

 

Where to start? The local press advertising,. But only one in 5 will be any good.

Ask at the local roofers' merchants. Beware, they only recommended customers...you want a long established one.

 

Pictures?

 

 

 

 

There are some pictures on this thread, but further issues have emerged since. The world of Zinc-roofers is a weird one. I'm sure other sectors are the same, but they all love throwing each other under the bus and the 2 other installers I've had round to look since both claim that are involved in current remedial work for the installer who did ours. Who do you believe?!

 

The lasting problem is that none of them will warrant any 'repairs' they do and of course the original warranty will probably be voided as soon as anyone else touches it.

[Mulberry View]

4 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

Zinc roofing has become fashionable but decent zinc roofers are few and far between.  With rooflights, you often need to solder.  I would stick with what you have, get the facias, flashings and gutters on and the rest of the outside complete with scaffold away before the end of summer.  Get a new zinc roofing contractor and get your windows and doors ordered and fitted.

 

The roof, for better or worse, is mostly finished. Sub-standard, but finished. There are no fascias to go on, what few gutters we have are on and the scaffolding was taken down in December (Nearly 4 months after the Zinc contractor left the site), after us having paid £4000 in over-charges to keep it up in the hope that the original installer would work with us to remedy the problems.

 

Windows and doors are next on my agenda, we're close to a window order, so I need to focus on the issues that are preventing that.

[KA-CT]

I'm sorry to say, but this is classic. And, not at all your fault. Horrible situation 😔

 

The job of the Architect is not simply to design but also to project manage and administer a contract for delivering the project. You could also have obtained this service from a freelance QS or PM, who would have carried the process forward for you, from where the Architect left off. 

 

With technical roofing applications, it's imperative to obtain a spec from the manufacturer and not the contractor - If you ask 3 contractors, you'll get 3 opinions and not necessarily something that meets the manufacturers guarantee requirements. You needed an approved contractor and preferably a single point guarantee with the manufacturer. I know these are available with this type of system.

 

A contract, with the roofing contractor, which detailed all of the nitty gritty in terms of spec, delivery, programme, guarantee, costs, variations, liabilities and payments - Did you have one? 

This sounds laborious and a bit corporate, but unfortunately this is the reality in today's construction industry. This is also where a QS, PM or Architect could've added some value. 

 

If you need someone to do a quick review of the paperwork, to see if you have any claim against the original contractor, before you compromise that opportunity by instructing another - then I'd be happy to take a look.

 

Kevin 

 

Connect@constructivetalent.co.uk 

[Russell griffiths]

Write a list of the bits you think will not work and let’s go through them one at a time. 
 

I personally think you have a few problems that aren’t really as bad as you think. 
 

why do you think the box gutter won’t work, because it’s too shallow to contain the amount of water that’s being distributed to it. 
 

have you been up there and studied it in a heavy storm. 
gutters are not normally the problem, it’s the lack of out let’s draining the gutters, so if it’s filling up beyond capacity, then it needs another outlet. 
 

have you bought the roof windows, if not can you not change the design to fit the upstand you have. 

[Mulberry View]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

Write a list of the bits you think will not work and let’s go through them one at a time. 
 

I personally think you have a few problems that aren’t really as bad as you think. 
 

why do you think the box gutter won’t work, because it’s too shallow to contain the amount of water that’s being distributed to it. 
 

have you been up there and studied it in a heavy storm. 
gutters are not normally the problem, it’s the lack of out let’s draining the gutters, so if it’s filling up beyond capacity, then it needs another outlet. 
 

have you bought the roof windows, if not can you not change the design to fit the upstand you have. 

 

The box gutter is pretty big. Its about 5m long, 350mm wide and has a 1:60 fall along its length. Its outlet is 200mm wide into a hopper. I happened to be on the roof yesterday for the first time since the Scaffolding came down at Christmas and noticed that there was a large amount of tree debris in the gutter, so I swept it to the end in readiness to remove it. It was raining at the time, and not particularly hard. I got briefly distracted, but in the hour or so I was gone, the 'dam' of debris had caused the gutter to fill almost up to the 100mm seam.

 

VM Zinc themselves say that if the fall was 3°, then the upstand could be lower, but otherwise it needs to be 200mm. They ignored the photos and dimensions I sent to them and allowed the installer to reassure them that everything is compliant. It makes no sense. The area of roof I'm standing on to take this photo is about 100mm higher the adjacent upstand, yet only 350mm away.

 

 

We had the roof windows here on site when the Zinc team arrived. They ignored the installation manual (which to be fair doesn't provide specific Zinc detailing) and I still have the Velux flashings in packaging in my site office because their 'solution' apparently wouldn't require them. Velux insist they have to be fitted.

 

Sadly the movement action of the "top hung" window runs to a VERY tight tolerance and by allowing 4-5 layers of Zinc to exist between the upstand and hinges, will effectively move the whole window back by an amount that will probably cause it to foul the upstand as it is opened. I have a report written by a specialist installer organised by Velux that highlights this issue. The hinges pivot at the bottom, so this removes the ability for many of the 'fixes' that others have suggested, such as running zinc 'skirts' around them. I've had almost a year now of trying to crunch this in my brain to solve it.

 

Velux told me I needed to provide at least of 100mm of net upstand height, I provided 145mm (theoretical), but stacked materials and general building 'sloppiness' have resulted in around 120mm in reality, so 25mm was lost somewhere during the installation. The Zinc installers proposed workaround would result in 60mm from the roof deck to the first ingress point, VM Zinc expressly say that's not enough. I say that I do not accept they'll be able to achieve their proposed design at guarantee 60mm, it's far too technical and if the end result is 50mm or even 40mm, then it makes the situation worse.

 

Even the fixed window is a problem because the Window itself lays onto the upstand and 'drapes' over the edges. By design, it is then screwed to the upstand and these screws will penetrate the Zinc and prevent the expansion movement it needs. The screw holes will only be about 50mm off the roof deck because the overall upstand height doesn't meet the dimensions shown here, again due to the stacked materials and weak adherence to tolerances.

 

[Russell griffiths]

What is at the other end of the gutter, can you put in an additional outlet, so one at either end. 
don’t worry about the fall that’s pretty irrelevant it’s about getting that water out of the gutter. 

[Mr Punter]

Regarding the gutter, if leaves and debris are allowed to build up there will be an issue, no matter how big the upstand, especially as this is not an external gutter.  Do you have a regime to inspect and clear the debris?

 

I had issues with Velux and a zinc roof, partly caused by the architect specifying 2 rooflights for which we did not have correct planning that we subsequently had to change and bodge with inevitable leaking.  A right PITA.

 

None of this should stop you cracking on with the rest of the build though.