Kitchen design - putting our design out there for comments...

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

We haven't posted this on social media, but the BH hive mind feels like a trusted group, so here are some of the design configuration options and a plan layout of our kitchen / living area.

 

We're pretty happy with it, and it's great to have some renders to look at (starting to feel like we're getting close to moving beyond paper plans), but we're trying to think through the details that we may only realise once we move in and live with it. Hence sharing to this community - we'd welcome any comments (or questions) as you may prompt something we haven't considered.

Any thoughts/opinions? 

[Conor]

Your room shape is quite similar to ours but design very different.

 

Why is the hob (or sink) not on the island? Your oven is too far from the hob. You want to keep the main working areas (sink, hob, oven) close together in a triangle shape.

 

The tall corner unit on its own looks wrong in that option. A lovely 3m island with no functionality is just getting in the way. It's too big if it's just for prep.

 

I'd move the hob to the island, replace that entire run where the hob was with full height units and put the oven there, bringing it in closer to the action. You just then need 600-800mm workspace either side of the sink.

 

I'm also not a fan of overhead units in working areas. Only put them in if you really need the storage space.

Edited December 20, 2024 by Conor

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

9 minutes ago, Conor said:

Why is the hob (or sink) not on the island? Your oven is too far from the hob. The tall corner unit on ita own looks wrong. A 3m island with no functionality is just getting in the way. It's too big if it's just for prep.

 

I'd move the hob to the island, replace that entire run where the hob was with full height units and put the oven there, bringing it in closer to the action.

@Conor thanks for your input - making me think more about the end tall unit indeed.

 

Size of the island is one aspect we're thinking of reducing a little (shortening by one chair and slightly narrower). We were clear in our minds about not wanting it to house either the hob or sink on it so it was more of a work surface than anything else.

 

We've been playing with the idea of the tall unit being at the other end, next to the door, but felt it may enclose the entrance. The sink instinctively went in front of the window.

[Conor]

21 minutes ago, Great_scot_selfbuild said:

@Conor thanks for your input - making me think more about the end tall unit indeed.

 

Size of the island is one aspect we're thinking of reducing a little (shortening by one chair and slightly narrower). We were clear in our minds about not wanting it to house either the hob or sink on it so it was more of a work surface than anything else.

 

We've been playing with the idea of the tall unit being at the other end, next to the door, but felt it may enclose the entrance. The sink instinctively went in front of the window.

I made some edits. I was interrupted by a puking child on my first attempt.

 

Keep the big island. Just make it the focus of the design, not an afterthought. Ours is 3.2m long and 1m deep and it's fantastic. I've the hob at one end, all pots and pans under it, oven directly behind, bins, chopping boards, knives etc just a step away. Sink almost directly behind as well.

 

Keep the sink at the window for sure. Try to picture using the kitchen day to day. What happens when somebody is cooking at the hob and transferring food to the oven while somebody else is making a cup of tea? Do they ever occupy the same space? The answer should be no. That's how we designed ours, designated zones by activity type.

 

A rendering of ours. The door on the LHS past the fridge is in to our boot room / pantry.

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by Conor

[JamesP]

I agree with @Conor and would put the oven and all the other tall units where the hob is . Move the hob to island and keep the sink in front of the window.

Ventilation for the hob is the challenge but doable.

I prefer no mid height wall cupboards.

You have a plenty of drawers and a pantry. 

Otherwise option C.

Enclosed is a photo of when we just moved in. The island is 2.2m X 1.2m. (just large enough for prep and cooking). The sink work top by the window is 3.6m. We have a pantry 1.6m x 2m through the doorway on the right of the tall cupboards.

1 hour ago, Conor said:

You want to keep the main working areas (sink, hob, oven) close together in a triangle shape.

 

The tall corner unit on its own looks wrong in that option. A lovely 3m island with no functionality is just getting in the way. It's too big if it's just for prep.

 

I'd move the hob to the island, replace that entire run where the hob was with full height units and put the oven there, bringing it in closer to the action. You just then need 600-800mm workspace either side of the sink.

 

I'm also not a fan of overhead units in working areas. Only put them in if you really need the storage space.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by JamesP
spellin

[TerryE]

IMO Islands can be effective but they can also prove a disaster in practice and in living.  The problem is that if you both decide after a few months living with that you've made a mistake then the remedial costs and disruption make it impractical to do anything to fix the issue.  The advantage of something like a more traditional table is that you can move it and replaced it with a different one -- you can also start with a cheap IKEA or the like one and live with it a bit before making your final choice.  Sure you might end up buying a £200 table and later chuck it out or repurpose it elsewhere, but that is going to prove a lot more cost- effective than £10⁺K remodelling work 2 years in.  

 

The kitchen area should be a focus for cooking and food preparation: the cookers, sink, fridge freezer, and main work surfaces should be 1 step (2 at most) from the work focus.  Any more and you will spend your time walking around and not working.   For example in your layouts, it's about 10-12 paces from the inside of the pantry to the microwave /cooker and 5 paces from the sink 

 

You comfort sitting area and positioning of the 2 two-seater is constrained by the fixed centre island.  You mention children.  What about grandparents and friend visiting?  Where is everyone going to sit? What if you decide after living in this space that you'd rather have an extra 2-seater or be able to pull and extra chair or bean bags into the area for everyone to sit around together.  You can't practically.  The only option you have is for everyone to sit around the dining table.

 

So in my view none of your options are that good.  It seems that you've gone to a kitchen supplier and got one of their designers to lay out some design options.  They make their money on selling units, not making a liveable and working kitchen.  90% of the time 1 person will be doing the prep and cooking, and most two.   Start by deciding where the main user will want to stand most of their time, then the sink, cooker, fridge, main cupboards, main prep surface need to be at most one pace away with the least frequently accessed devices, units 2 paces away.  Below surface storage can be a pain.  We've our most commonly accessed stuff at waste level or eye level, and use swing out or pull our storage / trays for all our commonly accessed below-surface storage. 

 

You can guess that I am not a fan of islands.  I wonder how many here love their islands and would never live without one.  We do have peninsular walnut work surface acting as a divider between   our main kitchen / prep area and our dining area complete with bar stool-type seats around it, but to be honest it doesn't get used that much -- in practice it's more of an over-spill surface and a zone divider. 

 

Edited January 2 by TerryE
Tweak / clarify last para

[joe90]

49 minutes ago, TerryE said:

You can guess that I am not a fan of islands. 

+1 fir the above reasons, a table can be used for dining, sitting around or extensive cooking. ( I made mine, bloody heavy this English oak)

Edited January 1 by joe90

[FuerteStu]

For me the fridge is the key feature that feels in the wrong place. 

 

Everybody talks about the oven-hob-sink being together, and rarely thinks about the 5 trips to the fridge to get things to cook, or the loading of the fridge when you get shopping. 

 

You'll want a large surface area opposite it if it has twin doors. 

 

We had limited space and opted for a peninsular rather than an island.. Narrower. But between the cooking and dining area, makes an excellent buffet area, or plating up area. 

 

If I were you, I'd get your spark to fit a smaller distribution board for the kitchen. Any additional circuits or appliances won't have to be taken back to the main board. 

 

You'll thank me in 10 years. 

[Iceverge]

1 hour ago, TerryE said:

You can guess that I am not a fan of islands.

 

Agreed. Everything is always behind you. 

 

Islands are for cookery shows so the cook can face the camera. The public got confused, thought that they were on TV and everybody else needed to see them peeling turnips. 

 

Turns out, nobody's going to watch that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Islands are for cookery shows so the cook can face the camera.

Or the kitchen is open plan and the “island” is the other side of the kitchen.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

4 hours ago, FuerteStu said:

If I were you, I'd get your spark to fit a smaller distribution board for the kitchen. Any additional circuits or appliances won't have to be taken back to the main board. 

Great idea - I hadn't got to this stage yet, but it's already added to the list of requirements.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

Just a note to say thanks for the contributions so far - I like hearing the challenges and different views in this forum as they tend to come across as constructive advice rather than the negative tone that so often fills FB forums.

 

Keep the opinions coming, this discussion has given us some valuable input to challenge our thinking & ideas.

[Havkey100]

In my opinion having a clear island is much better. When hosting, you have two separate congregation points, without cooker mess and paraphernalia in the way. Cooking than then be kept separate. I used to think otherwise, but having just been to a friends new home, they have the cooker against the wall, a similar sized island to your proposal, and it worked really well as a gathering space.

[Tuppers]

Your total room size is similar to what we're looking at so was really interested to see your design (although you have a lot more glass than we are looking at!). As on your plan, we've been considering having the island with nothing on it, but have also recently been discussing putting the sink there to help with the flow of our kitchen. We've got a pantry/prep kitchen in our current design so was nice to see that in someone else's!

 

One thing I was surprised to see in yours was the fridge/freezer being right next to the oven? I can imagine it constantly spinning up the cooling with the oven on. If you're limited in where you can place things, maybe putting some kind of insulation between the housings to limit heat transfer might be an idea?

[Dunc]

+1 on the hob to oven distance being too far - carrying that heavy roasting tin across the kitchen and trying not to spill won't be much fun.

 

Not keen on the bench seating. Fine for kids sliding in and out but older folks might not enjoy that? I'd put a corner sofa there and have the table over by the window.

[Tony L]

 

It’s been good for me to read through this & think about it over the past few days.  It got me thinking about a walk in pantry/larder again.  Having given up on the idea a while back, because I didn’t want to cut a big chunk out of my kitchen, I’ve now found a way to  include a larder by using space that had been designed for a large kitchen cupboard + I’ll take some space from the room that the cupboard backed onto.

 

Ideally, my larder would benefit from some mechanical cooling, perhaps just in the summer months, to keep my wine safe, but let’s not get into that now – I don’t want to derail @Great_scot_selfbuild’s thread.

 

When the time comes, I think I’ll make a rough & ready island to live with for a few weeks before deciding on a permanent island/no island.  I’ll likely try a couple of different sizes.  Thanks, @TerryE for your thoughts on this.

[Tuppers]

3 hours ago, Dunc said:

Not keen on the bench seating. Fine for kids sliding in and out but older folks might not enjoy that? I'd put a corner sofa there and have the table over by the window.

 

I'd agree on the bench side of things, it makes the space less configurable overall. Having a table with chairs only would allow you to change the setup easily if you get tired of it or if it doesn't work out as you'd hope

[Benpointer]

On 20/12/2024 at 21:11, Conor said:

I made some edits. I was interrupted by a puking child on my first attempt.

 

Keep the big island. Just make it the focus of the design, not an afterthought. Ours is 3.2m long and 1m deep and it's fantastic. I've the hob at one end, all pots and pans under it, oven directly behind, bins, chopping boards, knives etc just a step away. Sink almost directly behind as well.

 

Keep the sink at the window for sure. Try to picture using the kitchen day to day. What happens when somebody is cooking at the hob and transferring food to the oven while somebody else is making a cup of tea? Do they ever occupy the same space? The answer should be no. That's how we designed ours, designated zones by activity type.

 

A rendering of ours. The door on the LHS past the fridge is in to our boot room / pantry.

 

These rendered images are great, what tool did you use to create it  @Conor and @Great_scot_selfbuild?

 

PS +1 for the hob on the island unit, close to the oven - casseroles, roasts etc often need to be transferred between the oven and the hob. 

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

1 hour ago, Benpointer said:

These rendered images are great, what tool did you use to create it  @Conor and @Great_scot_selfbuild?

 

@Benpointer They were done by a kitchen designer (https://www.chisholmdesign.co.uk) - not sure which software they use I'm afraid.

[Great_scot_selfbuild]

6 hours ago, Dunc said:

Not keen on the bench seating. Fine for kids sliding in and out but older folks might not enjoy that? I'd put a corner sofa there and have the table over by the window.

@Dunc (& @Tuppers) funny you say that - that was the first proposed design (initial render attached - before the pantry was included also). Here was our thinking:

 

• The panoramic window is a centrepiece of the house's design and we want to enjoy it.
• Once we realised we didn't need a TV in this room, it allowed us to move the sofas away from the wall and swap with the dining table.
• Putting the dining table in the window centre might look 'show home picture perfect' (as we thought with earlier layout discussion), but feels like a waste of the best place to relax and enjoy the view (the additional 2 images I have edited using Procreate to overlay a photo of the view we'll have). In the evening, when the dining table would be most used, the curtains/blind will be closed, so the view wouldn't be seen anyway.

Our current table has bench seating both sides and so it won't be much of a change for us. The benches will allow us some much needed hidden storage also.

[TerryE]

23 hours ago, Tony L said:

 

When the time comes, I think I’ll make a rough & ready island to live with for a few weeks before deciding on a permanent island/no island.  I’ll likely try a couple of different sizes.  Thanks, @TerryE for your thoughts on this.

Glad to have been a help.  As I mentioned out kitchen is essentially arranged in a U around a 2×2m walking area with a peninsula walnut work-surface  acting as a divider between this and the dining table / area.  We have full-length storage on one wall of the dining area for low-access items and storage.  Hence 95% of our kitchen work is only a step or two away from the sink or induction hob.  When I need to access the full-length storage, I do notice the extra 10+ paces that I have to take to get there and back.

 

It's easy to make up a temporary table / island from a couple of cheap internal doors and DIY trestles made from 22×44 PSE timber, all for under £200   I made some up for Jan over 10 years ago.  I used them for an ad-hoc working surface during our build and still get them out or our storage room, and put them up a few times a year to do jobs on.

 

In terms of your pics, my Q to you is: do you see yourself spending your time?  Cooking in important but I doubt that few spend more than 10 hours a week doing so.  Also what you need to do here is to focus on how to make this time efficient and least tiring, so positioning and placement is a key design driver.  If you are going to spend more quality time relaxing in the sitting area then surely you should constrain your options here and focus on the correct balance between relaxing and preparing food. 

 

[Mr Punter]

I like the island with no sink or hob.  Great for serving up / parties and perfect for breakfast.  Hobs or sinks on islands, especially with seating, are a bad idea.  Unsightly and potentially dangerous.

 

I rarely transfer stuff from the oven to the hob or vice versa so the distance would not bother me.

 

If the tall unit next to the oven is a fridge freezer I think it looks small.  I am putting a similar integrated fridge freezer in a 2 bed flat.  Your place looks bigger and you may like more fridge space.

 

I don't think the bench seating will work. OK if it is a banquette or booth to seat max 6 but this is much too big to sensibly use.  Using them for storage will be a PITA and they don't look comfy for a leisurely meal.

 

I don't like an oven next to a fridge.  One heating the other cooling.

 

I love the windows but be wary of echo / reverberation which can be quite grating.

 

If you have space elsewhere in the house for the TV it may be better.  We don't have one in the kitchen / dining and it means we tend to interact more.

[Tony L]

1 hour ago, TerryE said:

In terms of your pics, my Q to you is: do you see yourself spending your time?  Cooking in important but I doubt that few spend more than 10 hours a week doing so. 

 

I’m not sure whether this question was for me, but I’m answering anyway.  I see my partner & myself (mostly her) spending a lot of time cooking & doing other kitchen-based activities, especially once we’re retired (date TBC, dep on house overspend). The kitchen was not my top priority when I designed the house; if it had been, I’d have designed the perfect kitchen, & the rest of the house would have then been designed as add-ons to the kitchen.  As things are, I’ve made a couple of compromises with the kitchen, but I’m happy with it.  Perhaps I’ll post some drawings in future when I have time to deal with any comments I might receive (like, “4.2m from fridge to hob/oven is too far.”), but for now I should aim to spend less time on Build Hub over the next few weeks so I can get on top of my work & then work on next stage of my house build.

 

Re the benches & all the negative comments on these, from people who think they are a bad idea, but don’t mention any actual experience of being seated on one: I have spent a lot of time in Austria where this “bench going around one corner of the dining room table arrangement” is very common.  It works well.  It’s a good space saver.  You just need to incorporate some thin cushioning with the right amount of give, on both the base & the back, & get the angle of the back rest just right.  I’ve thoroughly enjoyed very many multi-course meals whilst sat on this type of bench seat, & I highly recommend this excellent Austrian dining innovation.