Temporary park home accommodation and council tax

[joe90]

Well, after fighting for planning permission for several years and winning on appeal, hoping to move in early 2018, my wife was offered a job locally ( moving from Bristol to Devon) so we needed somewhere to live temporarily. A neighbour has a parkhome on his land which has been there for 14 years ( full approval from local council) and has been rented out for the last 13 years. I approached him to ask if we could “use” it and he agreed. Two weeks ago a council official turned up and asked my neighbour if anyone was living in the parkhome and he informed them we were using it on a temp basis, he was then told we would have to pay council tax ( in the last 13 years council tax was never levied on the parkhome).

 

last week a council enforcement officer told my neighbour he could not rent the parkhome out and we would be told to leave. On top of this the neighbour has been trying to move into the parkhome himself, sell his house and retire but the council will not let him as it would then be a “ new” dwelling. Initially the council wanted him to prove that the parkhome had been rented out for 6 years, which he got, then they raised this to 7, then 8,9 and ten years. They are unable to find the ten year ago renters so the council won.

 

So, do I pay the council tax, refuse as it’s not a separate dwelling, (I am not paying rent ?) if I do pay council tax will it help my neighbour establish the parkhome as a separate dwelling!!!!

 

rant over ( do not ask me what I think of planners and council officers ?)

[Ferdinand]

I think you probably take advice from Shelter.

 

And post on Landlordzone in either this section or the general section, asking for advice as a tenant not understanding what the Council are doing, and asking for advice. There are professional Park Home landlords on there who may know.

 

If you want to get into this, it is probably about whether the 4 Year or 10 Year Rule to establish lawful use applies in this case, and the Council are trying to prevent creation of a new dwelling. 

 

A Statement of Truth from the LL or a neighbour may be enough to prove that it was rented out in the 10th year.

 

F

[ProDave]

Has your neighbour actually formally applied for a certificate of lawful development? If not he should do so immediately without further communication to the council.  There appears the be a nasty clause that you can't apply for a certificate once enforcement action is in place? What

 

Re council tax.  If it is a holiday rental, I believe business rates may apply not council tax?  If it is let to someone on a longer term then it will be council tax. The same would apply if (as we are) you bought your own static caravan and sited it on it's own plot. It should be put in Band A for council tax.

 

From your perspective, if your neighbour gets that application in ASAP then they won't generally take enforcement action or evict you while that is being processed.

 

It does indeed sound like your neighbour does not currently have PP for residential use of the 'van.  We will be in the same position once our house is complete as we have the planning condition that residential use of the 'van will cease upon completion of the house. That was a compromise to allow our 'van to remain and become a studio and workshop, and be treated as a garden building.

 

What " full approval from local council" did he have 14 years ago? it sounds like it was like ours, not for residential use?

[Ferdinand]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Has your neighbour actually formally applied for a certificate of lawful development? If not he should do so immediately without further communication to the council.  There appears the be a nasty clause that you can't apply for a certificate once enforcement action is in place? What

 

Re council tax.  If it is a holiday rental, I believe business rates may apply not council tax?  If it is let to someone on a longer term then it will be council tax. The same would apply if (as we are) you bought your own static caravan and sited it on it's own plot. It should be put in Band A for council tax.

 

From your perspective, if your neighbour gets that application in ASAP then they won't generally take enforcement action or evict you while that is being processed.

+1

 

If it is a holiday but not residential rental then you could set up a let as a holiday rental, even at a nominal or peppercorn rent.

 

Remember that the building itself, and the Use of the building, are two different things and both are subject to Planning Permission.

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Ferdinand

[joe90]

Thanks guys, I don’t know the wording of his permission, I will ask. If the council asked for proof of rental and they got it ( for 9 years) then they know it’s being rented out, go figure. Having dealt at length with this particular council over planning I have found them completely disconnected with the real world. Watch this space.

[ProDave]

Yes but what is the qualifying length of time before you can claim lawful use?

[SteamyTea]

Joe

I am sure you mentioned having a holiday there 10 years ago, why you asked to use it again as it was so nice.

[Stones]

You say he has full approval from the council, for what exactly? 

 

You say he has been renting it out, as what - holiday let (subject to business rates) or as a dwelling (council tax payable) or both?

 

It sounds like the council tax chap has informed planning of a new dwelling, they have checked their records, and found no valid PP (hence my question about what exactly he has full approval for).

 

10 years would be the relevant length of time before the development was immune from enforcement (but still not authorised by PP).  

 

Paying council tax on it is not going to resolve the planning issue.

 

More info required...

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

More info when our neighbour returns after a few days away. The only thing I know is he rented it out to an employee of his (taxi firm) but the driver lost his license so no longer employed by him,

[Temp]

Quote

A neighbour has a parkhome on his land which has been there for 14 years ( full approval from local council)

 

What does that last bit mean?

 

Quote

Initially the council wanted him to prove that the parkhome had been rented out for 6 years, which he got, then they raised this to 7, then 8,9 and ten years. They are unable to find the ten year ago renters so the council won.

 

Tell him to try harder. Normally they can't take action after 4 years but it's 10 years in the case of "change of use". Try finding the parkhome on google images/maps or other sites with old sat images. Failing that did he declare rental income to HMRC? Does it have a phone line? Electricity bills?

 

If he can prove 10 years use then he can submit an application for lawful use on the grounds that they can no longer initiate enforcement action. Should sail through if he can find enough evidence. Probably a nightmare if he can't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Temp

[joe90]

Yes, it’s the 10 year proof that’s a problem. Well the latest from our illustrious council is they have charged us council tax, which I paid only to be followed by a letter (from a different dept) telling our ( landlord) neighbour that he cannot rent the parkhome to us and they are going to serve him with notice unless he appeals and he is definitely going to do that. I only hope the house is finished before we have to be evicted ?

[Temp]

Quote

  followed by a letter (from a different dept) telling our ( landlord) neighbour that he cannot rent the parkhome to us and they are going to serve him with notice unless he appeals

 

That wording is a bit strange because he can't formally appeal until he has been served with an enforcement notice. Don't confuse letters threatening enforcement with an actual enforcement notice.

 

If he is certain he can't find a way to prove 10 year use then I think I would submit a planning application for the park home asap. They won't normally issue an enforcement notice while there is a live planning application. That could take three months to be determined. Then you have a further 6 months (5 for safety) in which to submit an appeal which itself might take 6-9 months to be decided because the appeal service is busy. It's after all that they normally issue a formal enforcement notice....and you can appeal that taking up even more time. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by Temp

[Crofter]

Sorry I missed this one when it came up.

Only thing I can add is about the holiday let exemption from council tax- to qualify, it must meet the Furnished Holiday Let criterion of being available for let for minimum 210 days per year, and actually let for minimum 105 days. Within that period I believe that no individual let can be more than 30 days (to the same party). However you can have longer lets over the remaining 155 days- e.g. some people let their FHL to long(ish) term tennants over the winter as a single let.

[joe90]

5 minutes ago, Crofter said:

Sorry I missed this one when it came up.

Only thing I can add is about the holiday let exemption from council tax- to qualify, it must meet the Furnished Holiday Let criterion of being available for let for minimum 210 days per year, and actually let for minimum 105 days. Within that period I believe that no individual let can be more than 30 days (to the same party). However you can have longer lets over the remaining 155 days- e.g. some people let their FHL to long(ish) term tennants over the winter as a single let.

 

Thanks for that, our let will be for more than 30 days ( unfortunately) and will probably be for about 4 months.

[Temp]

Just for info the issue of Council Tax and Planning permission are separate in law. It's quite possible/allowed for the council to decided that "separate use" is occurring (and therefore that council tax is due) and at the same time tell the owner he doesn't have planning permission for "separate use" and issue enforcement proceedings.

 

If you don't pay council tax they eventually take you to court for the unpaid bill and send in the debt collectors with all the black marks that puts on your credit file. So I would certainly pay a council tax demand although you probably should check the banding is correct and appeal it if necessary.

 

[ProDave]

3 hours ago, joe90 said:

 

Thanks for that, our let will be for more than 30 days ( unfortunately) and will probably be for about 4 months.

Plenty of time for you to wait out firstly for an official enforecement action, then for his planning application, then for the appeal.  Even when that fails, a court order will be needed to evict you.

 

Just pay you CT and settle in. You will hopefully move into your new house and leave the mess for your neighbour to sort out.

 

P.S was this the neighbour that gave you so much grief over your planning?

[joe90]

14 hours ago, ProDave said:

Plenty of time for you to wait out firstly for an official enforecement action, then for his planning application, then for the appeal.  Even when that fails, a court order will be needed to evict you.

 

Just pay you CT and settle in. You will hopefully move into your new house and leave the mess for your neighbour to sort out.

 

P.S was this the neighbour that gave you so much grief over your planning?

 

No, mr nasty has moved, this is a very nice neighbour who we get on with very well, in fact if this charade helps him get his planning to live in the parkhome himself I don’t mind helping. It has however unsettled my wife who is worried we will be evicted ?

[SteamyTea]

Get the council to make you homeless, then they can rehouse you.  Play it right and you can then buy the house they put you in with a hefty discount.

Mate of mine won his appeal on this sort of thing.  One council department wanted to throw him off where he was living in a touring van, another department stepped in and said they would have too rehouse them and they had no money/spare properties (which is of course rubbish as they have loads in Cornwall).

[joe90]

Thanks Nick, I  jokingly  said this to my wife about being made homeless and she did not see the funny side. We have had a lot of change in the last four years and she craves ( like me) to be settled down but our new build should be complete by about March/April.?

[PeterW]

So given how long enforcement takes the council will be “evicting” you about 2-3 months after you have moved out ...

[ToughButterCup]

Here's a wheeze that works very locally to me... very locally indeed... you can even see it on Google Earth

 

Make an application to put a stables on the land.

While that application is being considered, put a caravan on it (in anticipation of a successful outcome) , and call it a site hut : then just live in it.  To date, that's worked for 4 years. The application process started in 2009.

 

You think I'm joking? No I am not. Not one little bit.

[Jeremy Harris]

20 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Here's a wheeze that works very locally to me... very locally indeed... you can even see it on Google Earth

 

Make an application to put a stables on the land.

While that application is being considered, put a caravan on it (in anticipation of a successful outcome) , and call it a site hut : then just live in it.  To date, that's worked for 4 years. The application process started in 2009.

 

You think I'm joking? No I am not. Not one little bit.

 

 

So, essentially they started the stables development to the point where the PP was locked in (looking at the Google Earth image from July this year), and have then done nothing more, other than continue to live in the caravan they put on the site as a "site hut"?

 

Nice wheeze, as there's probably no time limit on how long they have to complete the construction of the stables, so they could pretty much stay there forever.

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

I  jokingly  said this to my wife about being made homeless

Children need a home too

[ToughButterCup]

43 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

So, essentially they started the stables development to the point where the PP was locked in (looking at the Google Earth image from July this year), and have then done nothing more, other than continue to live in the caravan they put on the site as a "site hut"?

[...]

 

They are currently using  the ' space ' provided between the notion of a ' building start'  and the twelve year rule.

The Enforcement Officer told me that 

" There is no significant difference in law between residence in a caravan (with in this case a partner) and the occupation of a site hut for the purposes of building a stables. "

 

So, thats OK then.

 

 

[Temp]

2 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

Make an application to put a stables on the land.

While that application is being considered, put a caravan on it (in anticipation of a successful outcome) , and call it a site hut

 

That works as long as all the occupiers of the van can claim to be site workers. If you have kids or spouse that works 100 hours a week for the NHS the planners could decide they can't possibly be site workers and that would trigger the need for planning permission.