Quote for ashp - didnt expect that much!

[LnP]

26 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

I would doubt they would even realise, they make so little noise doing cooling, especially if you are flowing 14 to 16 degs Mine just runs at the lowest it can modulate, can't it hear it from about a metre away.

You might doubt it, but I'm afraid it's the reality. I have a friend who is an acoustics engineer and his company get involved as expert witnesses in cases like this. He tells of one client doing exactly this with his ASHP. Neighbour complained to the LA about noise. It mutated into a statutory nuisance complaint. My friend's company took sound measurements and argued based on published guidance that the noise levels were acceptable. They were unable to convince the environmental health officer .... who didn't know the first thing about noise or relevant guidance. The client eventually got so fed up they sold the house and moved.

 

My friend tells me this case is not unique. Even with planning permission you can fall foul of complaints that the noise is a nuisance and LAs are not well equipped to handle the complaints. But you are at least in a stronger position if you do have planning permission.

 

Bottom line is just to be aware of these risks. If you're planning to use your ASHP for summer cooling and you have choices where to site it, you might choose somewhere further from your neighbours. It also depends on your relationship with your neighbours.

[JohnMo]

23 minutes ago, LnP said:

You might doubt it, but I'm afraid it's the reality. I have a friend who is an acoustics engineer and his company get involved as expert witnesses in cases like this. He tells of one client doing exactly this with his ASHP. Neighbour complained to the LA about noise. It mutated into a statutory nuisance complaint. My friend's company took sound measurements and argued based on published guidance that the noise levels were acceptable. They were unable to convince the environmental health officer .... who didn't know the first thing about noise or relevant guidance. The client eventually got so fed up they sold the house and moved.

 

My friend tells me this case is not unique. Even with planning permission you can fall foul of complaints that the noise is a nuisance and LAs are not well equipped to handle the complaints. But you are at least in a stronger position if you do have planning permission.

 

Bottom line is just to be aware of these risks. If you're planning to use your ASHP for summer cooling and you have choices where to site it, you might choose somewhere further from your neighbours. It also depends on your relationship with your neighbours.

If that was the case you just hold your hands up and say I will switch off the cooling, not sure you would move and also declare you were in dispute with the neighbours. But the complaint could have been about equally about heating DHW water, as that in reality is all they would ever hear. Not many people know enough about heat pumps, let alone understand some can actually cool as well as by magic make heat.

[Dave Jones]

3 hours ago, LnP said:

I agree you're unlikely to get found out, but you should think about the possibility that neighbours complain about noise from the ASHP running all day on cooling mode in summer when they have their windows open. If they dob you in to the council you might have a problem.

 

its silent for all intents, your neighbours are not going to have a clue what its doing. 

[Dave Jones]

2 hours ago, LnP said:

You might doubt it, but I'm afraid it's the reality. I have a friend who is an acoustics engineer and his company get involved as expert witnesses in cases like this. He tells of one client doing exactly this with his ASHP. Neighbour complained to the LA about noise. It mutated into a statutory nuisance complaint. My friend's company took sound measurements and argued based on published guidance that the noise levels were acceptable. They were unable to convince the environmental health officer .... who didn't know the first thing about noise or relevant guidance. The client eventually got so fed up they sold the house and moved.

 

My friend tells me this case is not unique. Even with planning permission you can fall foul of complaints that the noise is a nuisance and LAs are not well equipped to handle the complaints. But you are at least in a stronger position if you do have planning permission.

 

Bottom line is just to be aware of these risks. If you're planning to use your ASHP for summer cooling and you have choices where to site it, you might choose somewhere further from your neighbours. It also depends on your relationship with your neighbours.

 

it was making hot water. prove different.

 

utter nonsense.

[TheMitchells]

22 hours ago, IGP said:

Also yes that’s a high flow temp, very painful. Most of those emitters seem like the minimum they can get away with. I’d be asking them to calculate for 40c flow, and only if the emitters *cannot* be done sensibly, then increase the flow temperature from there. Also, they can get creative having multiple emitters in a room rather than one big one and also going up to 700mm rather than 600mm etc. Lots of ways to skin the cat. 

 

I questined the flow temperature and the answer came back that due to the restricted wall space in the bungalow, the flow temp has been increased to meet the heat loss. Otherwise we'd need larger rads which I dont really want.  I shall take the measurements and suggested rads sizes tomorrow when i visit and see if we could increase the size of some of them.  Would they all need to be larger?  Or could i increase a few? 

Edited August 29 by TheMitchells

[TheMitchells]

22 hours ago, IGP said:

If there’s scope to increase the loft insulation to 300mm if not already and fill the cavities with EPS beads then do those first.

 

We will increase the loft insulation to300mm once the work has been done.  and the walls already have cavity insulation, though not with eps beads.  Maybe thats something we could look at doing. 

[JamesPa]

20 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

3 hours ago, LnP said:

You might doubt it, but I'm afraid it's the reality. I have a friend who is an acoustics engineer and his company get involved as expert witnesses in cases like this. He tells of one client doing exactly this with his ASHP. Neighbour complained to the LA about noise. It mutated into a statutory nuisance complaint. My friend's company took sound measurements and argued based on published guidance that the noise levels were acceptable. They were unable to convince the environmental health officer .... who didn't know the first thing about noise or relevant guidance. The client eventually got so fed up they sold the house and moved.

 

My friend tells me this case is not unique. Even with planning permission you can fall foul of complaints that the noise is a nuisance and LAs are not well equipped to handle the complaints. But you are at least in a stronger position if you do have planning permission.

 

Bottom line is just to be aware of these risks. If you're planning to use your ASHP for summer cooling and you have choices where to site it, you might choose somewhere further from your neighbours. It also depends on your relationship with your neighbours.

 

it was making hot water. prove different.

 

utter nonsense.

Actually very believable, and just the sort of thing my lpa would do.  If you apply for pp for an ashp they require you to achieve 29dBA at the most affected neighbour, or 20dBA if they class the area as 'rural'.  (The national requirement if you instal under permitted development is 37dBA).  A property 20m from a busy a road was classed recently as 'rural'.

 

With this approach to pp, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a nuisance complaint.

 

The lpa is run by the Green party.  Just saying!

Edited August 29 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

Currently sat on our hill, main road about 800m away, with road and wind noise sound meter records 60dB to 88dB (conversation to heavy traffic noise levels). Moving down the hill to where the heat pump is, it's 40 to 60 quiet library to conversation noise levels), with heat pump off. We are classed a rural.

 

So they want a heat pump half background, someone talking next door should be reported immediately - you will end up deaf. What nonsense.

[SteamyTea]

39 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

they want a heat pump half background

Half the real noise levels (the actual energy moving the air) or halve the number on the dB scale, which is logarithmic?

[JohnMo]

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

or halve the number on the dB scale,

@JamesPa is quoting 

 

1 hour ago, JamesPa said:

achieve 29dBA at the most affected neighbour, or 20dBA if they class the area as 'rural

So half on the dB scale so magnitudes less noise

[JamesPa]

8 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

@JamesPaachieve 29dBA at the most affected neighbour, or 20dBA if they class the area as 'rural

The same council has declared a climate emergency.

Edited August 29 by JamesPa

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

@JamesPa is quoting 

 

So half on the dB scale so magnitudes less noise

28.4

https://noisetools.net/decibelcalculator

[SteamyTea]

Noise is such a strange thing.

I am parked up on Penzance Prom, it is a 20MPH zone.

Got the car door open (to slow the (expletive deleted)ing cyclist on the footpath, the cycle path is less than 2 metres away, but separated by a wall for their safety, (expletive deleted)).

Here is the noise levels.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

.

Edited August 29 by SteamyTea

[SteamyTea]

.

 

Seem to have that multiple post problem again.

Edited August 29 by SteamyTea

[Beelbeebub]

2 hours ago, TheMitchells said:

I questined the flow temperature and the answer came back that due to the restricted wall space in the bungalow, the flow temp has been increased to meet the heat loss. Otherwise we'd need larger rads which I dont really want.  I shall take the measurements and suggested rads sizes tomorrow when i visit and see if we could increase the size of some of them.  Would they all need to be larger?  Or could i increase a few? 

Look at fancoils, that have higher outputs for a given water temperature.

[ReedRichards]

3 hours ago, TheMitchells said:

I questined the flow temperature and the answer came back that due to the restricted wall space in the bungalow, the flow temp has been increased to meet the heat loss. Otherwise we'd need larger rads which I dont really want.  I shall take the measurements and suggested rads sizes tomorrow when i visit and see if we could increase the size of some of them.  Would they all need to be larger?  Or could i increase a few? 

 

In the spreadsheet the installer has (stupidly) entered 100% in the "% Demand met" column instead of the actual figure, which is the number in the "Total Output" column divided by the number in the "Power loss " column.  So the worst case is the Bed 1 En-Suite where the figure is 293/290 = 101%.  The lounge isn't much better 2391/2306 = 104%.  On the other hand the kitchen 1176/768 =153 %.

 

You would need to add a third radiator into the lounge of much the same size as the other two and squeeze a second radiator into that ensuite with about half the output of the towel rail and you would be on your way to achieving the capability to run at a lower flow temperature.  Aim for all the numbers, calculated properly, to be 150% or greater.

 

Another option (as suggested by others) is the use of fan coil radiators but they need both plumbing and electrical power so they make the installer's job quite a lot more involved.  If you want to talk about anything with the installer tomorrow (i.e. at short notice) ask them what they think of those. 

[JamesPa]

8 minutes ago, ReedRichards said:

but they need both plumbing and electrical power so they make the installer's job quite a lot more involved

True unless there is a socket nearby, which with intelligent siting there often is. 

Edited August 29 by JamesPa

[Dave Jones]

15 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Actually very believable, and just the sort of thing my lpa would do.  If you apply for pp for an ashp they require you to achieve 29dBA at the most affected neighbour, or 20dBA if they class the area as 'rural'.  (The national requirement if you instal under permitted development is 37dBA).  A property 20m from a busy a road was classed recently as 'rural'.

 

With this approach to pp, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a nuisance complaint.

 

The lpa is run by the Green party.  Just saying!

 

cant see any of that under the permitted development rules. maybe yours is a niche individual specifc site ?

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/planning-permission-air-source-heat-pump

 

[JamesPa]

3 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

 

cant see any of that under the permitted development rules. maybe yours is a niche individual specifc site ?

 

https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/planning-permission-air-source-heat-pump

 

The requirement of you install under permitted development rules is 37dB(A) (this is contained in the 'MCS Planning Standards referenced in the legislation).   However my post specifically says   "If you apply for pp for an ashp... they require you to achieve 29dBA at the most affected neighbour, or 20dBA if they class the area as 'rural'...A property 20m from a busy a road was classed recently as 'rural'."

 

Im stating (I thought clearly but perhaps not) what my local authority require if you apply for planning permission.   In this case the local authority can make their own rules up and are not bound by the national rules.  Sometimes its necessary to apply for planning permission for example if permitted development rules have been suspended by an article 4 direction (made by the local authority - which mine has done in some areas) or if, for some reason, you cant meet all the PD rules.  

 

For the avoidance of doubt this is not about my site specifically, its a published policy applying to all sites in the local authority area.  The property 20m from a major A road that I refer to was not mine!

 

 

Edited August 30 by JamesPa

[ReedRichards]

On 29/08/2024 at 17:17, TheMitchells said:

shall take the measurements and suggested rads sizes tomorrow when i visit and see if we could increase the size of some of them. 

 

I'm curious, @TheMitchells, what happened at this discussion?  You had some rooms where you would certainly need to increase the size (or number) of radiators and that would take some ingenuity.   

[MikeGrahamT21]

I follow this guys blog, lots of data for 3 years of his heat pump now, a worthwhile read for anyone considering one: https://protonsforbreakfast.wordpress.com/2024/08/21/2024-summer-summary/

Edited September 2 by MikeGrahamT21

[TheMitchells]

7 hours ago, ReedRichards said:

 

I'm curious, @TheMitchells, what happened at this discussion?  You had some rooms where you would certainly need to increase the size (or number) of radiators and that would take some ingenuity.   

I did suggest increasing the size of a couple of rads and removing the one in the porch which they accepted.  However, they are still suggesting a 10kW heat pump and the cost has increased to £14,487.00 with the Govenment £7.500 to be deducted. And they still insist that the heat pump cannot go at the front of the property.  But we dont want to put it at the side or rear as it would then require moving when we do the extension.  I Could apply for planning for it to go to the front but that can take 8-12 weeks putting the install into late autumn/winter which would be a nightmare for the elderly parents.  And Dad is very concerned that it would be pinched, being so visible to all and sundry passing. 😒

So after pulling my hair out - we think we shall return to the old current system and hope it works for a while yet. part of the reason for replacing it this summer was that the heating and hot water went off so we thought there was a problem - and there was - the off peak main switch fuse was nicely burning away! But that has been replaced and so we are going to turn on the old warm air system and see if it still works.  If it does we will limp along with that for as long as we can.  And we'll check the fuses regularly, in case there is something causing the main fuse to heat up.

Its not ideal but is certainly the cheap option for now; while i consider other ideas.......

[JohnMo]

15 minutes ago, TheMitchells said:

£14,487.00

That's stupid money, ASHP and the grant system is geared around fools with plenty of money.

 

A 9kW Panasonic is only £3k + vat, cylinder £1k, a few big K3 rads £1.5k. so you quote is about £8 to9k labour! Yer right, more like a couple of k and pocket the rest as profit 

 

Apply for planning and do a DIY, shop around fir good prices - with trade assistance when needed.

[MikeSharp01]

We still have our problem in that I cannot actually do a DIY job for the difference I would need to pay a over the grant amount 4K ish based on all the quotrs we have had. I am now looking at the Umbrella schemes to see if I can use that route. It is an official MCS thing but finding a partner local enough to do their bit is proving 'interesting'.