Heatpump in cooling mode

[JohnMo]

27 minutes ago, eniacs said:

This must be hard to police

Must pretty hard, you can't hear mine from about 2m away doing cooling.

[LnP]

10 hours ago, eniacs said:

This must be hard to police.

I've a friend who's an acoustics engineer. His company get called in when disputes arise. Local authorities are unlikely to police it, but the risk is that a neighbour complains. Even if you have planning permission, neighbours can allege that the noise is a statutory nuisance. His experience is that local authorities are not well equipped to handle those cases which leads to uncertainty.

Edited May 23 by LnP

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> This must be hard to police

 

Also, pretty dumb. The UK is hardly likely to end up like the Southern US, where A/C is a big load.

 

And, when the need is greatest - those unusual sunny & hot days, PV generation will be at max and there will be power looking for places to be used up.

 

Sure think about reducing summer solar gain. But you'll likely reduce solar gain the rest of the year too, and therefore increase energy use overall.

 

Guess what, we have more heating days than potential cooling days in the UK. Even in Texas heat and a/c energy uses are fairly balanced:

 

https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/reports/2009/state_briefs/pdf/TX.pdf

 

I would love to know who invents these dumb 'rules'.

 

[JamesPa]

7 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> This must be hard to police

 

Also, pretty dumb. The UK is hardly likely to end up like the Southern US, where A/C is a big load.

 

And, when the need is greatest - those unusual sunny & hot days, PV generation will be at max and there will be power looking for places to be used up.

 

Sure think about reducing summer solar gain. But you'll likely reduce solar gain the rest of the year too, and therefore increase energy use overall.

 

Guess what, we have more heating days than potential cooling days in the UK. Even in Texas heat and a/c energy uses are fairly balanced:

 

https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/reports/2009/state_briefs/pdf/TX.pdf

 

I would love to know who invents these dumb 'rules'.

 

I think its reasonable to assume that the policy intent was to avoid giving PD rights for air conditioners.  Unlike heat pumps used for heating, these operate for extended hours in the summer when people are likely to be outside and thus more disturbed by the noise.  Furthermore they don't contribute at all to the mitigation of climate change (and therefore there is no reason to give them special treatment), whereas heat pumps used for heating do contribute to the mitigation of climate change.  Without the restriction the anti-heat pump lobby would be able to claim that the rules were making it easy for people to disturb their neighbours enjoyment of the outside in summer, without achieving anything for climate change. 

 

The fact that it isn't actively policed doesn't really matter.  If your neighbour is annoying you in the summer because they are operating their heat pump in cooling mode, then you can complain to your LPA.  If they have installed under PD then its their look out, and they will likely be told to desist from using it in cooling mode  - no need for your LPA or you to prove its a nuisance, your neighbours haven't got pp which is absolute.  If your neighbour isn't annoying you, then they aren't doing any material harm.

 

All in all I would say that this is a sensible policy intent, and the way it has been implemented also sensible,  It allows the violations that matter to be dealt with easily, whilst allowing those that don't matter to be ignored if the LPA choose to do so.

 

Nothing dumb about it at all IMHO, unlike the rule which gives MCS an effective monopoly over heat pump installations under permitted development, which is dumb, anti-competitive and steps well outside the boundaries of what the planning system is supposed to be about.

[Dave Jones]

hottest day of year for us yesterday at 32C.

 

ASHP had been running at 15c for last 48 hours, was using around 4kwh of electric, including some DHW. Ground floor averaged 22C, bedrooms with fancoils were actually a tad cooler at 21C. 

 

The dewpoint was above our set temp at 17C and the UFH manifold did have a some condensation on it but nothing from the fancoils, the piping through them runs through pozi's which are stuffed full of rockwoll.

 

I think the main contribution is the air tightness and level of insulation but very happy with the results.

 

Aircon level performance is possible with just a heat pump.

[JohnMo]

31 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

yesterday at 32C.

 

ASHP had been running at 15c for last 48 hours, was using around 4kwh of electric, including some DHW. Ground floor averaged 22C, bedrooms with fancoils were actually a tad cooler at 21C. 

Excellent result.

 

Different world in Scotland we had 23 our hottest day.

[SteamyTea]

On 23/05/2024 at 09:33, Alan Ambrose said:

And, when the need is greatest - those unusual sunny & hot days

What about hot nights, when PV generation is zero.

 

Generally speaking, the UK climate is getting warmer because we have less incidents of cold, rather than more incidents of hot.

 

The solution is simple, stop installing large windows. 

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

What about hot nights, when PV generation is zero.

You need battery back-up for all the excess day time energy..

[joe90]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

The solution is simple, stop installing large windows. 

Well I was told my build would overheat with the huge south facing conservatory and bifolds into the house, maybe it did get warm for a short while but only to temps one would accept on holiday to the Med!!! Conversely my little stone cottage with thick stone walls and small windows is lovely and cool (glad I have a wood stove for the winter tho).

[SteamyTea]

23 minutes ago, joe90 said:

only to temps one would accept on holiday to the Med

Dr. Mrs. Mosley may think differently.

24 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Conversely my little stone cottage with thick stone walls and small windows is lovely and cool

How many times have I said that adding mass to houses make them colder.

 

[SteamyTea]

31 minutes ago, Marvin said:

You need battery back-up for all the excess day time energy..

Or just design out the need to use extra energy.

[Marvin]

41 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Or just design out the need to use extra energy.

Hi @SteamyTea

 

I think both because if you have a thermally resistant enough thermal envelope to keep the summer heat out, you will have a thermally resistant enough thermal envelope to keep heat produced in the building by solar gain through smaller windows, cooking, fridges and freezers, running hot water, digesting food, lights, broadband, tv, laptops, phone chargers, replacement air to the building and so on in the house so it will soon heat up.

 

I'm surprised with your answer because you're usually spot on.   

Edited Sunday at 15:39 by Marvin

[joe90]

53 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Dr. Mrs. Mosley may think differently.

Well not everyone over there died, I did find it strange that such an educated man in medicine failed to understand the consequences of heat stroke. 

[SteamyTea]

56 minutes ago, Marvin said:

I think both

It is both really.

 

I don't think, that in the UK, we need to build in cooling.

There may be the odd week when internal temperatures rise to an uncomfortable level for some people, but potable A/C units, properly vented to outside, can deal with that.

 

Thinking aloud a bit, when the sun hits my outside walls, the surface temperature can easily go over 40°C.

Not talking @joe90's old south facing conservatory (which I have sat in), I doubt the air temperature went above that often, it at all.

So the extra thermal forcing is probably not so dissimilar to not having a sun lounge (the difference being is probably more perceived due to local windspeed).

 

[Marvin]

12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I don't think, that in the UK, we need to build in cooling.

Hi @SteamyTea

 

When the outside temperature rises above 12C we have to take action to avoid overheating. In the Spring/ Autumn it's fine because we open windows and also the temperature drops overnight thus cooling the bungalow. However the summer is a different thing. I think that I will have to do a study of this building to see what is what.  I admit there is a list of design failings which I want to address....