MBC Timber frame prices

[WisteriaMews]

10 hours ago, SBMS said:

Do the TF companies quote from building regs drawings or can they do it from stage 1 drawings?

All of the quotes were from planning drawings. That's one of the reasons I expect the quotes to go up when they get to building regs and the lintels required over openings etc ...

 

Per @TerryE you need to be aware of cladding costs. We're looking at a mix of metal standing seam and charred timber and it is looking like it will cost not much less than the timber frame installed.

[SteamyTea]

Rather than look at the floor area £.m^-2, why not compare the differences on the total surface area £.m^-2.

That reflects the amount of materials/work much more accurately.

[Adrian Walker]

6 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Rather than look at the floor area £.m^-2, why not compare the differences on the total surface area £.m^-2.

That reflects the amount of materials/work much more accurately.

 

That's how most suppliers quote, especially SIP and ICF.

[SBMS]

2 hours ago, Adrian Walker said:

 

That's how most suppliers quote, especially SIP and ICF.

Be great if members have those numbers to hand, I assumed it was a big ask so though sqm was easier!

[TerryE]

In our case, I didn't employ an architect.  I used a 3D visualisation to plan out the layout to ~5 cm precision.  We had some particular (but not uncommon) requirements.  The whole house is  on 3 storeys including a warm loft (used as my live-in son's bedsit) and laid out on a general 3×2 tile with the front centre tile being a lofted  hall void with an open floating staircase spiraling up the two flights and the rear centre tile used for utility and bathrooms to simplify pipe runs.  I had to make damn sure that this would work as a space and comply with BRegs.  A local architectural technician converted this to basic plan and elevation drawing to our planning application.  I passed this AutoCAD drawing to the MBC AT and we went through 6 design cycles to get to the final drawing sets for both slab and TF / cassettes, UFH plans, etc.

 

I had to do a load of tweeks, e.g. slightly repositioning glulams to keep foul-water and MVHR runs clear.  We have 60° reveals on all of our windows so I did all of this detailing myself  -- We have a stone skin, so fenestration involved 3 separate subs (MBC for TF, local builder for skin, Internorm for the fenestration)  and any interface between three subs is always a recipe for trouble.

 

So I probably did a better job myself and also saved maybe £25K professional.  OK, this took a lot of focus and effort on my part, but thanks to MBC I didn't have to worry about cold bridging issues and how to make sure that the build was airtight.

 

[Mark Greenfield]

On 17/03/2024 at 09:20, SBMS said:

For anyone that got quotes or went with MBC timber frame - what was your average price per sqm? Did it include their insulated slab?

 

 

You can't compare timber frame costs using m2, or m3 - too many variables that will skew it, and different companies will use different methods of pricing (comparing them can be problematic!)

[Mark Greenfield]

On 17/03/2024 at 09:31, nod said:

Never seem to get the M2 price for TF

 wry expensive compared to solids 

You can't compare a timber frame quote per m2 though - it's a 3D kit, and fully engineered so it'll include steel, joists, rafters, sometimes fascia and soffit, floor boards etc. Like for like, spec for spec, TF seems about the same in my experience - just faster to build and usually easier to get airtight.

[nod]

10 minutes ago, Mark Greenfield said:

You can't compare a timber frame quote per m2 though - it's a 3D kit, and fully engineered so it'll include steel, joists, rafters, sometimes fascia and soffit, floor boards etc. Like for like, spec for spec, TF seems about the same in my experience - just faster to build and usually easier to get airtight.

I’m coming at under 1000 m2 Solid build Don’t think I’d be anywhere near that But your right they are quicker Thrown up in no time The ones I’ve tiled are never square 

[TerryE]

2 hours ago, nod said:

The ones I’ve tiled are never square 

 

As I discussed above, our ground floor slab and room layout was on a 3×2 grid with the slab dressed to flat within a few mm level across the entire slab.  The TF was then erected on the set slab. We decided to tile the entire floor with a dressed slate before second fit.  Our slater said that he'd never tiled anything like it in his career.  He started out at a gable side of our living room and worked through the internal doors to the gable side in the kitchen and out of the rear kitchen patio door.  He only used parallel cuts, and everything was square to the mm.  It took him more than a day less than he'd estimated because everything was so level and square, so he threw in slating all our external door plinths gratis.

 

Edited May 28 by TerryE

[saveasteading]

Well done the groundworkers and/ or setting out team.

[Iceverge]

4 hours ago, nod said:

Thrown up in no time The ones I’ve tiled are never square 

All this factory manufacturing to the mm hype is pretty pointless unless you have good workmanship with the erectors.

[nod]

3 hours ago, TerryE said:

 

As I discussed above, our ground floor slab and room layout was on a 3×2 grid with the slab dressed to flat within a few mm level across the entire slab.  The TF was then erected on the set slab. We decided to tile the entire floor with a dressed slate before second fit.  Our slater said that he'd never tiled anything like it in his career.  He started out at a gable side of our living room and worked through the internal doors to the gable side in the kitchen and out of the rear kitchen patio door.  He only used parallel cuts, and everything was square to the mm.  It took him more than a day less than he'd estimated because everything was so level and square, so he threw in slating all our external door plinths gratis.

 

Not such much foundations 

The panels go in that quickly Studs etc Very much like doing a truss roof 

The crane drive wants to un choke way before your ready 

I’ve worked hundreds of TF We always have issues with cracking and nothing being square They quick But more expensive I would rather live in a solid build than TF But I can see why so many Self builder's go the TF route 

They are more convenient and quick 

But it does come at a premium 

[Gus Potter]

Ok I've posted a bit about this before.. here is something similar.

 

In the past I used to be a Contractor who site built a lot of Tfs. Now from time to time I design them as an SE and produce the panel drawings for others to knock up on site.  Yes a site built kit can be top quality and also it gives you more flexibility if you want to make design changes.

 

I can see that for folk on BH it's very hard to compare like with like when getting prices for TF's..

 

If you go to folk like MBC or say Scotframe in Scotland then you need to ask:

 

1/ What is the price for the bare timber frame walls.. in other words the studs, sheeting, lintels and floor joists. 

2/ What is the price for the roof.. could be trusses or a loose cut roof.

3/ What is the erection price.

 

Now you have itemised and costed the structural frame.

 

Next you have the rest.. insulation.. vapour barriers, fire stopping,plasterboard, door frames etc .. every quote you get will throw a spanner in the works so you can't compare.. it's apples with oranges... this is deliberate as the real profit( the cream) for the TF folk lies in not in the simple TF but elsewhere. They also play about with the U values and chuck in assumptions.. like say windows with a U value of X of a floor insulation of Y and things like to be "specified by the SE".

 

You may think that your self build is a big money job.. but the thing that really keeps the TF and roof truss companies ticking over is the volume market. Your self build is just a bit of PR and a chance to make a whacking profit. Also, as they are dealing with novices (mostly self builders) they factor in the hassle factor.. which us folk that do this as a day job don't give them.

 

As a designer I say to my Clients.. we can go to a local joiner who can do your frame on site .. but for comparison you can go to the likes of MBC. Now when we get the prices back let's weigh all this up.

 

The outcome on a self build is usually the folk I recommend get the job doing it as a site built frame / making it in a local barn. Of course it takes a bit longer to build a kit on site but you cut out a whole load of hassle, the design can be alterered easily.. avoids delay etc. Some Clients just want that big name.. it is all just done fast.. but once I start checking that all the interfaces are compatible.. often folk wish.. hey we should have gone the whole hog and site built the frame.

 

Also the beauty of stick building it is that you don't need to pay an unsecured amount of money up front to TF folk. You buy the timber and pay a joiner to cut and nail it together. This can be handy when borrowing money..

 

My gut feeling is go for a site built TF by a local joiner and then package up the insualtion all the way through to the door sets / finishes etc in different ways and get prices from the mechants big and small.

 

Most of the TF guys that stick build for me have served part of their time with the big builders anyway so it just a case of you ordering the material and letting them get on with it.. you cut out the middle man and from time to time you may want to make a cash donation for their kids charity run.

 

 

 

 

 

[SBMS]

8 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

Ok I've posted a bit about this before.. here is something similar.

 

In the past I used to be a Contractor who site built a lot of Tfs. Now from time to time I design them as an SE and produce the panel drawings for others to knock up on site.  Yes a site built kit can be top quality and also it gives you more flexibility if you want to make design changes.

 

I can see that for folk on BH it's very hard to compare like with like when getting prices for TF's..

 

If you go to folk like MBC or say Scotframe in Scotland then you need to ask:

 

1/ What is the price for the bare timber frame walls.. in other words the studs, sheeting, lintels and floor joists. 

2/ What is the price for the roof.. could be trusses or a loose cut roof.

3/ What is the erection price.

 

Now you have itemised and costed the structural frame.

 

Next you have the rest.. insulation.. vapour barriers, fire stopping,plasterboard, door frames etc .. every quote you get will throw a spanner in the works so you can't compare.. it's apples with oranges... this is deliberate as the real profit( the cream) for the TF folk lies in not in the simple TF but elsewhere. They also play about with the U values and chuck in assumptions.. like say windows with a U value of X of a floor insulation of Y and things like to be "specified by the SE".

 

You may think that your self build is a big money job.. but the thing that really keeps the TF and roof truss companies ticking over is the volume market. Your self build is just a bit of PR and a chance to make a whacking profit. Also, as they are dealing with novices (mostly self builders) they factor in the hassle factor.. which us folk that do this as a day job don't give them.

 

As a designer I say to my Clients.. we can go to a local joiner who can do your frame on site .. but for comparison you can go to the likes of MBC. Now when we get the prices back let's weigh all this up.

 

The outcome on a self build is usually the folk I recommend get the job doing it as a site built frame / making it in a local barn. Of course it takes a bit longer to build a kit on site but you cut out a whole load of hassle, the design can be alterered easily.. avoids delay etc. Some Clients just want that big name.. it is all just done fast.. but once I start checking that all the interfaces are compatible.. often folk wish.. hey we should have gone the whole hog and site built the frame.

 

Also the beauty of stick building it is that you don't need to pay an unsecured amount of money up front to TF folk. You buy the timber and pay a joiner to cut and nail it together. This can be handy when borrowing money..

 

My gut feeling is go for a site built TF by a local joiner and then package up the insualtion all the way through to the door sets / finishes etc in different ways and get prices from the mechants big and small.

 

Most of the TF guys that stick build for me have served part of their time with the big builders anyway so it just a case of you ordering the material and letting them get on with it.. you cut out the middle man and from time to time you may want to make a cash donation for their kids charity run.

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting what you say. One of the perceived benefits of off-site TF seems to be speed but all the manufacturers seem

to quote 16-20 week lead times. There’s a lot of house to be built in 5 months; I suspect the total build timeframe between different methods works out the same. 
 

@Gus Potter would you choose TF (stick built on site I assume) over masonry if building your own?

[garrymartin]

45 minutes ago, SBMS said:

Interesting what you say. One of the perceived benefits of off-site TF seems to be speed but all the manufacturers seem

to quote 16-20 week lead times. There’s a lot of house to be built in 5 months; I suspect the total build timeframe between different methods works out the same. 

It's more about time on-site than overall time. Time on-site is costly; just think of the savings in scaffold hire as just one example.

[TerryE]

13 hours ago, nod said:

A. Not such much foundations 

B. The crane drive wants to un choke way before your ready 

C. I’ve worked hundreds of TF We always have issues with cracking and nothing being square They quick But more expensive I would rather live in a solid build than TF.

 

(My A, B, C)

 

Re A) MBC use a reinforced slab construction, rather than the poured concrete trenches. The latter is the norm in the UK, but the former is commonly use elsewhere.  Each method has its strengths and weaknesses.  The MBC approach used a compacted layered Mot 3 sub-base, 50mm fine levelling sand, followed by structural EPS insulation / concrete formwork, and the rebar cages and floor reinforcing laid inside the EPS with the UFH pipework tied to the rebar grids. A deep core soil survey was mandatory and this was used by the SE to calculate the sub-base depth.  IIRC ours was 450mm compacted in 50mm layers.

 

I am not sure what you mean by B.  My local contractor did the site prep with me doing site survey validation.  The MBC crew turned up on the agreed day to start the sub-base, the sand, then EPS, then UFH, then concrete pour, and 8 days later (IIRC) we had a complete insulated slab with the sides diagonals and levels accurate to a few mms.  There was a 3 week back-off to allow slab to cure and then the framing crew arrived.  IIRC the big crane was the road unloading cassettes off on-road artics on day 1, then a smaller crane worked on-site for days 2-4 or 5.  Until the Internorm crew came to fit the windows on day 8, the MBC framing crew was  the only team onsite.  At day 10, we had an externally complete TF complete with windows and doors that I could lock normally.

 

Since MBC subcontract these crews (but work with preferred subs) this process could be hit and miss depending on the actual crews. There was one member that I recall had a bad experience, but most were like me and were really impressed with the quality of the work.

 

Re C.  The topic is about MBC TFs.  How many MBC TFs have you worked with?  I have only built one, but what I can say is that we had no probs with (lack of) squareness, and not a single plaster crack in 7 years in our entire house.  Other members here with MBC frames have made similar comments.

[Kelvin]

The other consideration with a timber kit is your financial exposure. It’s been done to death on here so I won’t repeat that. Suffice to say that there’s little to no materials risk with stick built as you buy what you need when you need it. 

Edited May 29 by Kelvin

[saveasteading]

24 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

buy what you need when you need it. 

And there is spare stuff sitting at the local BM.

You can phase deliveries to minimise clutter and aid cash flow. But there's a better price available for taking one big delivery.

[Kelvin]

There’s a new retirement estate in the local town. It’s all two and three bed bungalows that are all timber kits. From what I understand the phase 1 development had them all made off site and quality and logistics was a problem. They created an on-site ‘factory’ and made them themselves for the later phases. 

[JohnMo]

15 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

that are all timber kits.

Think all houses around us are timber kits. Doesn't mean there any good. That's down to the build process and the people doing the work.

[SBMS]

21 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Think all houses around us are timber kits. Doesn't mean there any good. That's down to the build process and the people doing the work.

@JohnMo have you got an aversion to TF? You prefer masonry? Genuine question out of interest as still looking at all options. 

[JohnMo]

47 minutes ago, SBMS said:

have you got an aversion to TF?

None at all, if I was to build again I would do a Larson strut build on site. Current house is woodcrete ICF.

 

Masonry can take or leave it. Not a preferred method locally, so trades harder to come by. Not keen on render either - bricks not local either as no clay to make them from.

 

Any build method has good points and bad. Either can be dreadful or passivhaus standards.

 

Kit houses I am sceptical about, after pushing to go that direction on our build - we were sold a high speed build, until I started asking questions and digging deeper. U values we wanted were not achieved, build time not achievable, cost stagging. So changed all our plans to ICF and did it myself for half the cost, better airtightness and good U values.

[Iceverge]

Something sadly often forgotten is the well being of the people on the site during the build.

 

We have a concrete monster. 600mm thick cavity walls, 150mm hollowcore first floor slabs with 75mm concrete on top. 150mm concrete ground floor slab. 

 

Concrete is heavy, and sloppy and dusty and noisy, and unforgiving. I hated coring holes, chasing walls, fixing to blocks etc. At one point I was trying to make a 100*50mm chase for electric mains in a wall with a 9"grinder. I couldn't hear with the noise, I couldn't see with the dust, I couldn't feel anything with the vibrations and the couldn't breath with the respirator.  Cruel and unusual punishment. 

 

Meanwhile my timber garage I really loved. Chiseling the timber, sawing the joists, hammering about 5000 nails in by hand. I grew a small beard, grinned at the swallows flying overhead, sharpened my pencil with a penknife and wondered why on earth Jesus bothered becoming a Messiah when he had a chance to be a carpenter. 

[Iceverge]

To continue this thread. 

 

I would do a TF on site if going again. 

 

25mm sand cement render. 

100mm dense blockwork. 

50mm vented cavity.

Breather membrane 

11mm OSB

220mmx44mm @600cc studs with cellulose. 

Airtighness membrane. 

97x44mm vertical studs offset from main studs as service cavity @600cc filled with cellulose. 

12.5mm plasterboard 

More 12.5mm plasterboard.

Skim. 

 

 

[Adrian Walker]

On 29/05/2024 at 09:59, TerryE said:

 

(My A, B, C)

 

Re A) MBC use a reinforced slab construction, rather than the poured concrete trenches. The latter is the norm in the UK, but the former is commonly use elsewhere.  Each method has its strengths and weaknesses.  The MBC approach used a compacted layered Mot 3 sub-base, 50mm fine levelling sand, followed by structural EPS insulation / concrete formwork, and the rebar cages and floor reinforcing laid inside the EPS with the UFH pipework tied to the rebar grids. A deep core soil survey was mandatory and this was used by the SE to calculate the sub-base depth.  IIRC ours was 450mm compacted in 50mm layers.

 

I am not sure what you mean by B.  My local contractor did the site prep with me doing site survey validation.  The MBC crew turned up on the agreed day to start the sub-base, the sand, then EPS, then UFH, then concrete …

What are the weaknesses of an insulted slab?