Dave Jones Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 19 hours ago, Redbeard said: Planning Portal: "Development is permitted only if the air source heat pump installation complies with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme Planning Standards (MCS 020) or equivalent standards. Read more about the scheme." It's going to depend, I guess, on how you can prove 'equivalence' not seeing anything stating planning policy, permitted development, is governed by MCS. Do you have alink to the PLANNING policy stating this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharpener Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 1 hour ago, Dave Jones said: Do you have alink to the PLANNING policy stating this ? See upthread in this post. @JamesPa has researched this topic thoroughly over many months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2D2 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 2 hours ago, JamesPa said: There are notable exceptions however, including Octopus but also many smaller organisations who are doing a good job of designing and installing effective and efficient systems. It wouldn't be fair to tar the whole industry with the same brush. Octopus refused to design rads for a flow temperature below 50°C for me so they're a non-starter for homes that can (and should) go lower. Smaller local MCS outfit has been much more accommodating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 1 hour ago, S2D2 said: Octopus refused to design rads for a flow temperature below 50°C for me so they're a non-starter for homes that can (and should) go lower. Smaller local MCS outfit has been much more accommodating. I actually spoke to them about that recently. They now do either direct boiler replacement with existing rads or a more efficient low temp system with large rads, at cost of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 1 hour ago, S2D2 said: Octopus refused to design rads for a flow temperature below 50°C for me so they're a non-starter for homes that can (and should) go lower. Smaller local MCS outfit has been much more accommodating. i did, cant see anything referencing planning is dependant on an MCS certificate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dave Jones said: i did, cant see anything referencing planning is dependant on an MCS certificate ? You have to look at the source legislation and source documentation, not to secondary texts. These are set out here I cant personally see any room for ambiguity, but if someone else can then please explain how. Note that the requirement for MCS applies to installation under Permitted Development only. If you install under express planning consent then it would not apply, unless of course your LPA made it a condition. In either case MCS is required to get the grant. Edited March 3 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 47 minutes ago, JamesPa said: You have to look at the source legislation and source documentation, not to secondary texts. These are set out here I cant personally see any room for ambiguity, but if someone else can then please explain how. Note that the requirement for MCS applies to installation under Permitted Development only. If you install under express planning consent then it would not apply, unless of course your LPA made it a condition. In either case MCS is required to get the grant. not talking about the grant. The statement was MCS was required to comply with permitted development. Calling BS on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: not talking about the grant. The statement was MCS was required to comply with permitted development. Calling BS on that. Not sure what you are 'calling bs' on. MCS is required for pd, see the post referred to here if you can find any ambiguity in the source texts quoted in the post, please say. I would be delighted to be proved wrong but, sadly, can't see that will happen. Edited March 3 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 On 02/03/2024 at 11:52, JamesPa said: and if you self install (or have it installed other than by an MCS contractor) it isn't permitted development so you need express consent. It is a new build, so the OP may have it covered by his planning application. Or live in a field with no neighbours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 1 minute ago, SteamyTea said: It is a new build, so the OP may have it covered by his planning application. Or live in a field with no neighbours. Indeed so. As I say the requirement for MCS applies only to installation under pd. Under express consent there is no such requirement unless the LPA add it as a condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Just now, JamesPa said: Under express consent there is no such requirement unless the LPA add it as a condition. Yes. I think that @Surfiejim needs to find a better plumber. And probably get a decent heat loss calculation done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 10 hours ago, Surfiejim said: Thanks for all your great replies. In conclusion: The heat pump grant of £7500 isn't going towards helping people decarbonize as it was planned. It's just allowing the plumbers to jet off to the Caribbean 4 times a year instead of twice therefore increasing carbon emisions. And, I'm in the wrong business.. I'll add my name to the ever growing list of people who suggest Octopus - have you looked into this yet? I have a heat pump already but if I was in your position that's what I would be doing. They are offering leading edge R290 technology at not a lot of money net of £7.5k grant or even, as ReedRichards mentioned, free if you are able to use all of the plumbing you have already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S2D2 Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 6 hours ago, PhilT said: I actually spoke to them about that recently. They now do either direct boiler replacement with existing rads or a more efficient low temp system with large rads, at cost of course. Did they specify a flow temp? They proposed ripping out and replacing all my rads to hit a flow temp of 50 and would not allow me to spec larger radiators at my own cost. I raised it with the heat pump team and greg@octopus who just referred it back to the heat pump team. They claim that they design for a scop of 3.3 with an "efficient" flow temp of 50 because 3.1 would cost the same to run as a gas boiler. This year the average Octopus tracker scop needed for price parity is around 3.7, so they're openly talking absolute nonsense. Quoted 5.5k after the 7.5k grant, so not even worth accepting then doing the rads myself later. I was on here touting them as a good option before I hit this brick wall with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, S2D2 said: Did they specify a flow temp? They proposed ripping out and replacing all my rads to hit a flow temp of 50 and would not allow me to spec larger radiators at my own cost. When I first read about the launch of the new R290 "Cosy" heat pumps (made by RED, now part of Octopus), initially promoted as as a high temperature boiler replacement, I called them to find out if it they would also fit that as part of a low temp/large radiator application and they said yes, and conceded that it would be more efficient. No prescription about flow temp was mentioned, but anyone interested should certainly double check with them. Edited March 3 by PhilT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfiejim Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 15 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Yes. I think that @Surfiejim needs to find a better plumber. And probably get a decent heat loss calculation done. Plumbers with MCS are limited around here. And my heat loss calculations have been carried out by a firm recommended by the architect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfiejim Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 14 hours ago, PhilT said: I'll add my name to the ever growing list of people who suggest Octopus - have you looked into this yet? I have a heat pump already but if I was in your position that's what I would be doing. They are offering leading edge R290 technology at not a lot of money net of £7.5k grant or even, as ReedRichards mentioned, free if you are able to use all of the plumbing you have already. I contacted Octopus. Unfortunately, they are unable to quote in my area currently??!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 25 minutes ago, Surfiejim said: I contacted Octopus. Unfortunately, they are unable to quote in my area currently??!! Did you try this search site? I dialled in a Cornwall postcode and it listed a few MCS heat pump installers https://www.renewableenergyhub.co.uk/search-installers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 On 02/03/2024 at 16:25, JamesPa said: This is, IMHO, a scandal, as the installation standards have no effect on others and planning law is solely about the effect on others. If installation standards are required for heat pumps, they should be part of building regulations. Only 3.1c has any rightful place in planning law. Agreed. It is outrageous. And a timely reminder whilst still in the early planning stage, a very good reason not to bother with an ASHP. Because im not allowed to fit one! Yes, i could apply for planning (though i prefer not to involve the council in anything as only pain lies down that path) , but i think we can be pretty confident what the conditions will be. Indeed, as seen on this very forum, asking for conditions over and above what MCS would sign off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 Well I self installed a heat pump with my planning it was simply shown on the plans, no questions asked 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 27 minutes ago, PhilT said: I dialled in a Cornwall postcode and it listed a few MCS heat pump installers 5 local ones and 20 within 100 miles, Though on a newbuild, probably not worth using MCS for an ASHP. Just buy the unit that is suitable and just about anyone can fit it. 56 minutes ago, Surfiejim said: my heat loss calculations have been carried out by a firm recommended by the architect Care to share the results, and maybe some outline plans? It is always good to put 'stuff' into the general pot then others can see if it is useful to themselves. (not a lot else today as it is raining all day, again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 25 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Just buy the unit that is suitable and just about anyone can fit it. Love that statement. It's a safe box that connects to electricity and water. Why does it need a whole special 'trade' body? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 28 minutes ago, JamesPa said: Love that statement. It's a safe box that connects to electricity and water. Why does it need a whole special 'trade' body? Why would it? I installed my own, does not need gas type training/certification . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeSharp01 Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Though on a newbuild, probably not worth using MCS for an ASHP. Just buy the unit that is suitable and just about anyone can fit it. Not the best Idea as you can claim the £7500 grant, you can still do some of the work, get the price down to the grant plus less than the unit will cost you, get it installed and commissioned for the cost of just the Heat Pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 13 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said: Not the best Idea as you can claim the £7500 grant, Let's see after the budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 4 Share Posted March 4 55 minutes ago, joe90 said: Why would it? I installed my own, does not need gas type training/certification . Agree, but the government doesn't it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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