Surfiejim Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Hi All. I'm a little stuck getting quotes due to lack of MCS certified companies in my area but I'm hoping someone can clear up my confusion. I've costed the equipment to install the heat pump and cylinder at £5000 ish maybe £6k with expansion tanks/ pipe etc. The installer said 5 days max (1 guy) to install. He quoted £11k which works out at over £1000 per day in labour. I have clearly missed something or am I just in the wrong business? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 15 minutes ago, Surfiejim said: or am I just in the wrong business? Yes, it’s why so many here fit their own, MCS is just a way of charging much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Get another quote, the guy obviously prices as he doesn't want the work. Speak with octopus or other utilities provider they all install heat pumps under MCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Out heatpump and cylinder, buffer pumps, glycol, gubbins etc was £6200. Plumbers were about £1200 (6 man-days) but that included UFH commissioning and a few other jobs. Spark another £300. All inc VAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 We’ve just had an 11 KW system installed 7.5 grant and 5k for us to pay The problem with self installing is I couldn’t buy the equipment in for 5k The cylinder alone was £1800 The installers know this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 1 hour ago, nod said: We’ve just had an 11 KW system installed 7.5 grant and 5k for us to pay The problem with self installing is I couldn’t buy the equipment in for 5k The cylinder alone was £1800 The installers know this ....and if you self install (or have it installed other than by an MCS contractor) it isn't permitted development so you need express consent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 24 minutes ago, JamesPa said: ....and if you self install (or have it installed other than by an MCS contractor) it isn't permitted development so you need express consent. Yep that grant makes self install pointless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 2 hours ago, JamesPa said: ....and if you self install (or have it installed other than by an MCS contractor) it isn't permitted development so you need express consent. what ? Link to law on this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbeard Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 40 minutes ago, Dave Jones said: what ? Link to law on this ? Planning Portal: "Development is permitted only if the air source heat pump installation complies with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme Planning Standards (MCS 020) or equivalent standards. Read more about the scheme." It's going to depend, I guess, on how you can prove 'equivalence' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeBano Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 It’s a grey area in my eyes as long it complies with the MCS sound assessment. It doesn’t say you need a MCS certification. You need MCS certification for the 7.5k grant which I fully agree with can’t have every cowboy fitting them for what I’ve seen lately on new builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 The planning portal says 47 minutes ago, Redbeard said: Planning Portal: "Development is permitted only if the air source heat pump installation complies with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme Planning Standards (MCS 020) or equivalent standards. Read more about the scheme." It's going to depend, I guess, on how you can prove 'equivalence' https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/the-microgeneration-certification-scheme this page seems pretty clear "One of the limits of permitted development rights for wind turbines and air source heat pumps is that equipment must be installed by an installer who has been certificated through the scheme using a certificated product", and "the installer of the equipment should check to ensure that the installation complies with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme planning standards (MCS 020), including requirements on noise" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, JoeBano said: It’s a grey area in my eyes as long it complies with the MCS sound assessment. It doesn’t say you need a MCS certification. You need MCS certification for the 7.5k grant which I fully agree with can’t have every cowboy fitting them for what I’ve seen lately on new builds. 52 minutes ago, PhilT said: The planning portal says https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/common-projects/heat-pumps/the-microgeneration-certification-scheme this page seems pretty clear "One of the limits of permitted development rights for wind turbines and air source heat pumps is that equipment must be installed by an installer who has been certificated through the scheme using a certificated product", and "the installer of the equipment should check to ensure that the installation complies with the Microgeneration Certification Scheme planning standards (MCS 020), including requirements on noise" In this sort of discussion its generally best to go to source. The source (in England) is the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 2015 and specifically this clause https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/14/crossheading/class-g-installation-or-alteration-etc-of-air-source-heat-pumps-on-domestic-premises/made Clause G1 reads G.1 Development is not permitted by Class G unless the air source heat pump complies with the MCS Planning Standards or equivalent standards. The MCS Planning Standards are defined in MCS 020 as follows: That very clearly includes that it shall be installed to MCS standards by an MCS contractor. There are no recognised equivalent standards and, it seems to me that to be equivalent, it would need to include something like clauses (a) and (b) not just clause (c). Thus MCS becomes compulsory to benefit from PD rights. This is, IMHO, a scandal, as the installation standards have no effect on others and planning law is solely about the effect on others. If installation standards are required for heat pumps, they should be part of building regulations. Only 3.1c has any rightful place in planning law. However guess who wrote the 'MCS Planning Standards'? So if you wish to install without MCS, my reading is that you need express planning consent (in England at any rate) Edited March 2 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Biggest joke is it says the same for wind turbines, bet there aren't any MCS installer, as there are no grants. Once grants stop, there will be very few MCS heat pump installers either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 10 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Biggest joke is it says the same for wind turbines, bet there aren't any MCS installer, as there are no grants. Once grants stop, there will be very few MCS heat pump installers either. Only if they change the PD rules, which hopefully they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilT Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 18 minutes ago, JohnMo said: Once grants stop, there will be very few MCS heat pump installers either. The business would likely move more towards the most commercially progressive big energy companies like Octopus who will probably use the benefit of increased electricity sales to support financially attractive heat pump deals without grants, and particularly compared to gas boilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 2 minutes ago, PhilT said: The business would likely move more towards the most commercially progressive big energy companies like Octopus who will probably use the benefit of increased electricity sales to support financially attractive heat pump deals without grants, and particularly compared to gas boilers. That's very plausible! Or they will go for a lease model. Or better still, the installation becomes simple enough, and the product cheap enough, that no subsidy is needed. Edited March 2 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 53 minutes ago, JamesPa said: Or better still, the installation becomes simple enough, and the product cheap enough, that no subsidy is needed. For new builds it is already cheap enough, unless you insist on paying a premium for a Vaillant heat pump. The UFH should already be being installed, so it operates on very low temps, a cylinder is most likely being installed, then the only cost added is the difference in heat source price. A new build should almost never need a heat pump above 8kW, most a 5/6kW is bigger than really required. Plenty of decent heat pumps on the market for reasonable price. Retrofits are always going to more expensive, with microbore and or small radiators etc. to contend with, they should get the grants. A heat pump should really be made mandatory for all new builds anyway (without a grant) and any other reason you need planning permission. If you don't like it, don't do the new build or extension etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 1 hour ago, JamesPa said: Or they will go for a lease model Why? Bit like leasing your TV in the 70/80s, 4 years later you could have bought it twice over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 (edited) 2 hours ago, JohnMo said: Why? Bit like leasing your TV in the 70/80s, 4 years later you could have bought it twice over. Form the point of view of a consumer who has the capital resources you are of course right. But plenty of consumers don't have the capital resources and capitalism works best for the few if the few control the capital resources. So from the point of view of the suppliers a lease model is perfect. Look what has happened to software, music, cars, houses. Guaranteed annuity revenues are a capitalists dream. Leased heating is just another step down the road to the ultimate goal. Edited March 2 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 2 hours ago, JohnMo said: A heat pump should really be made mandatory for all new builds anyway (without a grant) and any other reason you need planning permission. If you don't like it, don't do the new build or extension etc. Agreed, so long as you add 'for an extension' to the second half of the first sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR10 Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 1 hour ago, JamesPa said: But plenty of consumers don't have the capital resources and capitalism works best for the few if the few control the capital resources. So from the point of view of the suppliers a lease model is perfect. https://www.homebuilding.co.uk/news/heat-pump-monthly-subscriptions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surfiejim Posted March 3 Author Share Posted March 3 Thanks for all your great replies. In conclusion: The heat pump grant of £7500 isn't going towards helping people decarbonize as it was planned. It's just allowing the plumbers to jet off to the Caribbean 4 times a year instead of twice therefore increasing carbon emisions. And, I'm in the wrong business.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReedRichards Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 Or you could conclude that it is allowing Octopus to install heat pumps for very little money, possibly for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesP Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 1 hour ago, Surfiejim said: Thanks for all your great replies. In conclusion: The heat pump grant of £7500 isn't going towards helping people decarbonize as it was planned. It's just allowing the plumbers to jet off to the Caribbean 4 times a year instead of twice therefore increasing carbon emisions. And, I'm in the wrong business.. Correct, though you are not supposed to notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted March 3 Share Posted March 3 (edited) 32 minutes ago, JamesP said: 2 hours ago, Surfiejim said: Thanks for all your great replies. In conclusion: The heat pump grant of £7500 isn't going towards helping people decarbonize as it was planned. It's just allowing the plumbers to jet off to the Caribbean 4 times a year instead of twice therefore increasing carbon emisions. And, I'm in the wrong business.. Correct, though you are not supposed to notice. Not sure its actually plumbers. Most regular plumbers are excluded because of the MCS overhead. I have a suspicion based on the installers I have interviewed that its, in large measure, special purpose organisations (you might call them 'grant harvesters') who have sprung up. Flashy salesmen, special offers if you sign today, 'Ill just phone my manager about that request for a bit off' etc, you know the drill. They then employ rookie plumbers to do the actual install, which is another reason why they will rip out as much of the existing installation as possible, so that the plumber doesn't have to think too much, which of course also increases the size of the job. These guys can only survive because of MCS and the grant. There are notable exceptions however, including Octopus but also many smaller organisations who are doing a good job of designing and installing effective and efficient systems. It wouldn't be fair to tar the whole industry with the same brush. Edited March 3 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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