ProDave Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 45 minutes ago, Roger440 said: I appreciate my view wont be popular, especially here. Im very confident i will be proven right over the long term. The idea that some ASHP's and EV's will make the slightest difference, and that you believe it too, i struggle with tbh. Deep down, surely you know its all futille? A large chunk of the world just isntinterested. Even our own PM says one thing and does another. Nothing happens. Life rolls on. I lie somewhere between your view and that of the climate change fanatics. It makes a lot of sense to move away from excessive oil usage for no other reason that it will run out one day. So moving what we can to wind generated electricity is perfectly logical, And if that gives cleaner air to breath, then that is good as well. I do love my new house for it's low energy usage and lovely internal climate, near constant temperature, constant fresh air, low humidity, no damp or condensation etc. I really would not want to go back to the 1930's house I had that was cold and damp and frightfully hard to heat, or even the 1980's house I had after that, that was still hard to heat but at least it was not damp. Most people seem to worry how are they going to afford to heat their home. Heating is a minority of my energy usage. I do honestly hope EV's will mature and eventually I will drive one, but that may not be until I have ticked off most of my bucket list and am too old and decrepit to be dragging a tin tent behind me around the countryside (some will say that day can't come soon enough) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 minutes ago, ProDave said: dragging a tin tent behind me around the countryside You could rent a caravan on a holiday park, you can take your own bucket to pee in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, Roger440 said: Im very confident i will be proven right over the long term. The idea that some ASHP's and EV's will make the slightest difference, and that you believe it too, i struggle with tbh. Deep down, surely you know its all futille? A large chunk of the world just isntinterested Not sure what it is that you think you'll be proven right about?? That we should all do nothing about climate change? We should all carry on driving ICEs? You're right some ASHPs and EVs won't make much difference, but lots will. I don't believe its futile. I know that in my 60s I'm not gonna benefit whatsoever from the cutbacks and sacrifices I make, but I have kids and grand kids that I don't want to avoidably burden with the crap that extremes of weather might bring to their world in the future because of current and previous generations lack of consideration. You're right that the majority of the first world isn't interested because climate change isn't biting yet and the first world has the resources to deal with the effects of climate change, at the moment. Unless the masses wake up to the risk they are taking by ignoring requests to cut back, I believe we'll start to see more and more mandatory restrictions. If you dont think that can happen, I bet you didn't think the government had the power to mandate lock down and certainly not to use it.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, ProDave said: I lie somewhere between your view and that of the climate change fanatics. It makes a lot of sense to move away from excessive oil usage for no other reason that it will run out one day. So moving what we can to wind generated electricity is perfectly logical, And if that gives cleaner air to breath, then that is good as well. I totally agree and I tend to use the word “polluting” when referring to burning fossil fuels which can never be good for us or the planet so a change to “solar” and “wind” has got to be good for everyone. If we don’t make these changes because others won’t or can’t be bothered then nothing will get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) 16 minutes ago, joe90 said: I totally agree and I tend to use the word “polluting” when referring to burning fossil fuels which can never be good for us Below is a letter in this weeks comic. Weather calamities are climate disasters Published 21 February 2024 From Michael Paine, Sydney, Australia Your view on whether the world has already warmed by 1.5°C refers to extreme weather events. The resulting human tragedies are often referred to as “natural disasters” by politicians and the media. But the causes are becoming less and less natural. Let’s start calling them what they are – “climate disasters” (Leader, 10 February). Here is the Leader. Forget what long-lived sea sponges say, focus on reaching net-zero According to data from Caribbean sponges, the world passed 1.5°C of warming a decade ago, but debating these arbitrary limits distracts from the bigger picture 7 February 2024 ERWIN MASCARINAS/AFP via Getty Images IT’S not often that global news is garnered from a sponge. But that is what we find ourselves debating this week. Researchers studying long-lived sea sponges to track the average global surface temperature over 300 years have made a startling discovery: when delegates at the Paris climate conference in 2015 agreed to aim to limit warming to 1.5°C above pre-industrial levels, it may have already been too late. According to data from the sponges, the world was already more than 1.5°C hotter as a result of the burning of fossil fuels. This conclusion is controversial. A key issue is that this species of sponge lives only in the Caribbean. Even if its skeleton does accurately record past temperature changes, extrapolating globally from one region is questionable. However, the idea that fossil fuels have warmed the planet somewhat more than the official figures suggest is plausible. But debates about whether we have passed 1.5°C distract from the bigger picture. What really matters is that the current level of global warming is already dangerously high, and that further warming will be even more disastrous. We are already seeing ever more extreme weather events around the world, with record-breaking heatwaves, floods and droughts. These extremes are causing increasingly serious knock-on effects. They are reducing productivity, damaging crops, driving up food prices and creating political instability. They are destroying homes and reversing hard-won social and economic advances. They are also disrupting trade, with low water levels in Europe and the Panama Canal affecting shipping (see “Drought has hit the Panama Canal hard – can it survive climate change?”). To prevent things from getting much worse, we need to stop the world warming further. Achieving this will require global greenhouse gas emissions to reach net zero. All the focus should therefore be on reducing emissions, not on discussing rather arbitrary temperature limits. And with global emissions still rising, we have an awful lot of work to do. Edited February 23 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 (edited) 3 hours ago, Roger440 said: I appreciate my view wont be popular, especially here. Im very confident i will be proven right over the long term. The idea that some ASHP's and EV's will make the slightest difference, and that you believe it too, i struggle with tbh. Deep down, surely you know its all futille? A large chunk of the world just isntinterested. I hope you are wrong, fear you are right, and believe that the outcome will lie somewhere in between. Without a doubt there are many people who can easily afford to change who aren't interested. Equally there are many people who cant afford to change who are interested. Yet somehow governments and individuals are taking action. Its too little, too late, for it to be painless, but that doesn't mean that its too late to have a material effect. If you cast your mind back to the 80s, the ozone hole was going to kill us. It hasn't. Not because the science has changed, because people have changed. In the process some people did die, but nevertheless the expansion of the ozone hole has been stopped, possibly even by now reversed. Humanity is equally capable of dealing with climate change and already has all the engineering/science tools to do so. Along the way some will use the argument that 'its all futile so there is no point in me doing anything'. Others (fewer every year because its now self evidently akin to claiming that the earth is flat) will try to deny that there is a problem. But surely enough will recognise that there is a problem to act if they can (and I accept that many cant without some outside support). Just as they have before. Every single person who tries to argue that doing nothing is acceptable, when its obvious that something needs to be done, is acting either without any shred of conscience, out of ignorance, or because they have been fed lies by those who have self interest at heart and are not discerning enough to separate the lies from the truth. However these things snowball, and the actions and words of every one of us makes a difference to what our friend group think and ultimately how politicians act. So we all have a duty to act in some way.+ I am genuinely sorry that you feel that the situation is hopeless and that you cannot do anything to help; its difficult to imagine a a more depressing way to live ones life. Blissful ignorance is one thing, but it appears you recognise the dangers yet feel powerless to do anything. it would be seriously depressing to be in that situation. Edited February 23 by JamesPa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, Dillsue said: Not sure what it is that you think you'll be proven right about?? That we should all do nothing about climate change? We should all carry on driving ICEs? You're right some ASHPs and EVs won't make much difference, but lots will. I don't believe its futile. I know that in my 60s I'm not gonna benefit whatsoever from the cutbacks and sacrifices I make, but I have kids and grand kids that I don't want to avoidably burden with the crap that extremes of weather might bring to their world in the future because of current and previous generations lack of consideration. You're right that the majority of the first world isn't interested because climate change isn't biting yet and the first world has the resources to deal with the effects of climate change, at the moment. Unless the masses wake up to the risk they are taking by ignoring requests to cut back, I believe we'll start to see more and more mandatory restrictions. If you dont think that can happen, I bet you didn't think the government had the power to mandate lock down and certainly not to use it.......... Oh, i believe mandatory restrictions, additional costs and all the rest of it will happen. Millions will be impoverished. For the majority, life will be worse. For a small handful, they will enrich themselves of the back of everyone else. Most of this group couldnt care less about people on environment. I get it. im convinced that will happen. Just as you seem to be. Though you seem to welcome it, whereas i dont. I dont think any societal good can come from it. Im saying that it wont change anything at a climate level. And ill be proven right in due course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 13 minutes ago, JamesPa said: I hope you are wrong, fear you are right, and believe that the outcome will lie somewhere in between. Without a doubt there are many people who can easily afford to change who aren't interested. Equally there are many people who cant afford to change who are interested. Yet somehow governments and individuals are taking action. Its too little, too late, for it to be painless, but that doesn't mean that its too late to have a material effect. If you cast your mind back to the 80s, the ozone hole was going to kill us. It hasn't. Not because the science has changed, because people have changed. In the process some people did die, but nevertheless the expansion of the ozone hole has been stopped, possibly even by now reversed. Humanity is equally capable of dealing with climate change and already has all the engineering/science tools to do so. Along the way some will use the argument that 'its all futile so there is no point in me doing anything'. Others (fewer every year because its now self evidently akin to claiming that the earth is flat) will try to deny that there is a problem. But surely enough will recognise that there is a problem to act if they can (and I accept that many cant without some outside support). Just as they have before. Every single person who tries to argue that doing nothing is acceptable, when its obvious that something needs to be done, is acting either without any shred of conscience, out of ignorance, or because they have been fed lies by those who have self interest at heart and are not discerning enough to separate the lies from the truth. However these things snowball, and the actions and words of every one of us makes a difference to what our friend group think and ultimately how politicians act. So we all have a duty to act in some way.+ I am genuinely sorry that you feel that the situation is hopeless and that you cannot do anything to help; its difficult to imagine a a more depressing way to live ones life. Blissful ignorance is one thing, but it appears you recognise the dangers yet feel powerless to do anything. it would be seriously depressing to be in that situation. I dont know if im not good at explaining myself? Im also amazed at your optimisim and belief. Especially of politicians. Mind boggling frankly. I didnt say do nothing is acceptable. I said that doing nothing much is what will happen, at a global level. The difference between us, is im a realist, you are an optimist. I dont find it depressing, indeed, there is a small risk im may be pleasantly surprised. You will be disappointed. All that said, i still say we should be spending these vast sums (that we dont even have) on protecting ourselves from climate change, not a futile attempt to prevent it. Which is very different from the corner you seek to paint me into, of doing nothing. Eventually, when reality sets in, and the effects are well and truly here, them im sure we will pivot to that. Sadly, by then, we will have spaffed everything we have, and more, having tried to prevent it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, ProDave said: I lie somewhere between your view and that of the climate change fanatics. It makes a lot of sense to move away from excessive oil usage for no other reason that it will run out one day. So moving what we can to wind generated electricity is perfectly logical, And if that gives cleaner air to breath, then that is good as well. I do love my new house for it's low energy usage and lovely internal climate, near constant temperature, constant fresh air, low humidity, no damp or condensation etc. I really would not want to go back to the 1930's house I had that was cold and damp and frightfully hard to heat, or even the 1980's house I had after that, that was still hard to heat but at least it was not damp. Most people seem to worry how are they going to afford to heat their home. Heating is a minority of my energy usage. I do honestly hope EV's will mature and eventually I will drive one, but that may not be until I have ticked off most of my bucket list and am too old and decrepit to be dragging a tin tent behind me around the countryside (some will say that day can't come soon enough) I agree, no reason not to start moving away from oil. But the pace and the cost and all the problems that will cause will be on a scale not seen before. Thats where i have a problem. Im pretty sure target after target will get put back. As ive said, many times, id love to have done what you have done. It just wasnt to be. Ref EV's im still intrigued by how the caravan sector, a market thats very much alive and well, will deal with a world that essentiallly will eliminate that pastime. There was certainly no sign of change at the show at the NEC last week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 1 hour ago, Roger440 said: But the pace and the cost and all the problems that will cause will be on a scale not seen before. So what do you suggest ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, joe90 said: So what do you suggest ? A slower, sensible transfer to new, less polluting technologies. That doesnt involve chucking billions of taxpayer cash to try and artifically force the pace. With many such schemes ultimately failing and / or delivering results well short of what was intended. With the ridiculous target of fitting heat pumps to everything by 2030 being a great example. Not going to happen, cant happen, as we discussed before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crofter Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Somebody mentioned not being able to buy an EV for £5k. That's not really true, there are Zoes and Leafs in that price range. With the former you need to make sure you're not locked in to a battery lease. And on this first generation of EV you can't expect much range. The main thing preventing EVs appearing at that price point is that they're not old enough yet. If you look at the £10-15k range there are thousands of pretty decent EVs. I'm contemplating an MG5 or a Niro myself. The other point about whether any of this is worth doing, your attitude probably depends on what media you consume. I was quite impressed by some interviews that Hannah Ritchie did, and I'm looking forward to reading her book, which she describes as the product of her journey from climate pessimist to cautious optimist. https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/453652/not-the-end-of-the-world-by-ritchie-hannah/9781784745004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) I mostly agree with Roger and Dave. We aren’t saving the planet we’re trying to save ourselves. The planet probably doesn’t really need saving in reality. It’ll be here long after we’re gone. I didn’t buy an EV to save the planet nor have we built this house to save the planet either. The fact that both are likely a little better for the environment over their lifetime is bonus. But we aren’t building anywhere near enough houses like it. The typical buildhub house and full renovation is leagues ahead of any other big builder built house. The car is a nice thing to drive. The house is (or will be) a nice thing to live in. I can directly compare it to the old farmhouse we rent which is nice enough with great views and on a working farm. But it’s a cold damp and dark house and not a pleasant place to live in. Edited February 23 by Kelvin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 3 minutes ago, Crofter said: Somebody mentioned not being able to buy an EV for £5k. That's not really true, there are Zoes and Leafs in that price range. With the former you need to make sure you're not locked in to a battery lease. And on this first generation of EV you can't expect much range. The main thing preventing EVs appearing at that price point is that they're not old enough yet. If you look at the £10-15k range there are thousands of pretty decent EVs. I'm contemplating an MG5 or a Niro myself. The other point about whether any of this is worth doing, your attitude probably depends on what media you consume. I was quite impressed by some interviews that Hannah Ritchie did, and I'm looking forward to reading her book, which she describes as the product of her journey from climate pessimist to cautious optimist. https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/453652/not-the-end-of-the-world-by-ritchie-hannah/9781784745004 That was me. Niether of those cars is close to capable of a 200 mile round trip commute. If my wife cant get back home from work, what will i do for dinner? These are imporrtant questions! The other issue at the sub £5k end is battery condition. If its very poor or defective, the car is scrap. Which can be a problem if you can only just afford £5k in the first place. I note that the HOL commitee report picks up on this and talks about some industry standards such that the consumer isnt buying a dud. Sure, you can by a dud ICE too, but theres little on those thats likely to scrap the car for a single fault. But the report was correct, its a barrier to ownership further down the food chain. That would be main concern. And ive spent 20 years in the trade, including 15 running an automotive workshop. As a consumer, i dont have the confidence that i can establish that what im buying isnt just scrap looking for a mug to buy it at his level of the market. The reality is, another corsa is the best solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 8 hours ago, Roger440 said: But the report was correct, its a barrier to ownership further down the food chain. Especially if, as the topic says, you start to use it to backflow into the grid and the electricity wholesalers cycle the battery a couple of times per day. No one would to buy one of those cars 10 years old. Really makes a 10 year old EV a scrapper value wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 9 hours ago, Roger440 said: A slower, sensible transfer to new, less polluting technologies. That doesnt involve chucking billions of taxpayer cash to try and artifically force the pace. With many such schemes ultimately failing and / or delivering results well short of what was intended. With the ridiculous target of fitting heat pumps to everything by 2030 being a great example. Not going to happen, cant happen, as we discussed before. Well I think it is slow, yes heat pumps won’t be installed by 2030. I think this transition is driven by the public mostly rather than gov, they are doing what will get them votes , look at just stop oil! I want a better planet for my grandchildren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 26 minutes ago, JohnMo said: No one would to buy one of those cars 10 years old. Really makes a 10 year old EV a scrapper value wise. My son works for a major car seller (Ford) and they are not allowed to take EV,s in part exchange because the market is flooded with second hand ones that are not selling 🤷♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 Think whatever the individual does will help something, but it is really small and possibly insignificant in the grand scheme of things. The steel plant that is closing in Wales is going to reduce CO2 emmisions of the UK by around 20% on its own. One plant! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 4 minutes ago, joe90 said: My son works for a major car seller (Ford) and they are not allowed to take EV,s in part exchange because the market is flooded with second hand ones that are not selling As most people do not own a car these days, but have it on a lease of some sort, the market could be flooded because there were a lot leased out in 2020. Like most of these things, they are a lot more complicated than they seem at first. Mind you, I would be a bit miffed if Ford sold me an electric Mustang and then would not take it in part exchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 11 hours ago, Roger440 said: I get it. im convinced that will happen. Just as you seem to be. Though you seem to welcome it, whereas i dont. I dont think any societal good can come from it. What on earth makes you think I'd welcome mandatory restrictions? If everyone doesn't voluntarily do their bit then yes lots of things will need to become mandatory and that would be sad, but necessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillsue Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 9 hours ago, Roger440 said: Niether of those cars is close to capable of a 200 mile round trip commute. If my wife cant get back home from work, what will i do for dinner? These are imporrtant questions! The other issue at the sub £5k end is battery condition. If its very poor or defective, the car is scrap. Which can be a problem if you can only just afford £5k in the first place. The average car journey is under 5 miles so easily done with a tired battery. 5 miles is easily cycled if you can't afford an old EV, or you want to do the right thing for the environment, your health and pocket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 27 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Mind you, I would be a bit miffed if Ford sold me an electric Mustang and then would not take it in part exchange. You possibly get more from webuyanycar etc. On a recent car purchase they gave me £4500 more than I would have got trading in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 19 minutes ago, JohnMo said: You possibly get more from webuyanycar etc Yes, the marketplace has changed over the last few years. Car dealerships are really selling finance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesPa Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 (edited) 53 minutes ago, JohnMo said: The steel plant that is closing in Wales is going to reduce CO2 emmisions of the UK by around 20% on its own. One plant! Be careful with that, the steel will still be consumed and it will therefore have to be produced elsewhere. Hopefully somewhere that uses less polluting technology, but its unlikely at the current time to be pollution free! I don't doubt that UK emissions generally are lower than they would have been as a result of us outsourcing our entire manufacturing to China. Ots easy to ignore what are called 'scope 3' emissions (essentially emissions due to produces/services you consume other than those which directly consume energy), but we shouldn't. Every piece of cr*p we buy (and collectively we buy a lot of cr*p) contributes to these. 12 hours ago, Roger440 said: The difference between us, is im a realist, you are an optimist. I dont find it depressing, indeed, there is a small risk im may be pleasantly surprised. You will be disappointed. Im not sure Id describe myself as an optimist, but I guess Id rather spend (most) of the rest of my life living in a not totally unrealistic state of hope, than I would feeling depressed that all was lost, with a small chance I get a kick of positivity towards the end of my life. 12 hours ago, Roger440 said: Ref EV's im still intrigued by how the caravan sector, a market thats very much alive and well, will deal with a world that essentiallly will eliminate that pastime er - carry on. Why do you think electric cars that can tow caravans are not possible? And since most places you park a caravan have electric hook-ups, the car only needs to do the one way trip. 12 hours ago, Roger440 said: Im pretty sure target after target will get put back. Sure it will, just like projects get delayed... but in most cases ultimately completed 10 hours ago, Roger440 said: With the ridiculous target of fitting heat pumps to everything by 2030 being a great example er not sure that is actually a target. newbuilds yes - entirely practical, but the timescale for completion (or near completion) for retrofits has not yet been announced so far as I am aware. 12 hours ago, Roger440 said: All that said, i still say we should be spending these vast sums (that we dont even have) on protecting ourselves from climate change, not a futile attempt to prevent it. Can you elaborate what you think we should be doing to 'protect ourselves'. Edited February 24 by JamesPa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 minute ago, JamesPa said: 12 hours ago, Roger440 said: All that said, i still say we should be spending these vast sums (that we dont even have) on protecting ourselves from climate change, not a futile attempt to prevent it. Can you elaborate what you think we should be doing to 'protect ourselves'. When it comes to new electrical generation, wind and solar are the cheapest forms, carrying on with thermal plant technology will cost more. I don't think we need to be too hard on the Chinese, they are not much worse than us. And going back 50 years. What I find more interesting is that the historically bad polluters are still the bad polluters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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