klargester biodisk installation

[Amateur bob]

good afternoon, i am in central scotland and one condition of planning was to upgrade an existing septic tank in the area with a klargester biodisk, i have been phoning around and struggling to find someone to install it, does anyone know a good company to use im near perth, or is it difficult to install myself?

 

thanks

[Thorfun]

seems you've double posted! here's my answer to your other post on this subject

 

 

[ProDave]

I would have contested that planning condition and instead asked them to specify "private treatment plant"

 

The Biodisk would be my last choice, moving mechanical parts that WILL one day break is not a good idea.

 

Have you bought it yet?  If not I would hold fire on ordering and let us recommend something better (one of the air blower treatment plants)

[Amateur bob]

20 minutes ago, ProDave said:

I would have contested that planning condition and instead asked them to specify "private treatment plant"

 

The Biodisk would be my last choice, moving mechanical parts that WILL one day break is not a good idea.

 

Have you bought it yet?  If not I would hold fire on ordering and let us recommend something better (one of the air blower treatment plants)

no it hasnt been purchased yet, are these systems cheaper?

[ProDave]

Look up Biopure, Vortex, Conder ASP as probably the most common used by forum members.  They work with an air blower agitating the contents so no moving parts down in the smelly stuff and usually the worst that can go wrong is the air pump will eventually fail so you just replace it or repair it.

 

 

[joe90]

I installed a Vortex and very pleased with it, even the air pump can be mended, the air pump diaphrams  can wear out but I bought spares and easy to replace yourself. 🤷‍♂️

[Amateur bob]

5 minutes ago, joe90 said:

I installed a Vortex and very pleased with it, even the air pump can be mended, the air pump diaphrams  can wear out but I bought spares and easy to replace yourself. 🤷‍♂️

i need one that will be sufficient for a 5 bed house, what sort of price range for a vortex?

 

ill put below the mitigation calcs if anyone knows how the vortex or other systems compare let me know i could use them instead

 

thanks

 

BACKGROUND Average amount of water per person per day    =150L Primary Treatment: septic tank, standard discharge  of Phosphorus as a mean      = 10mgP/L Daily discharge of phosphorus per person    = 1500mgP Secondary treatment: package treatment plan as a mean  = 5mgP/L Daily discharge of Phosphorus per person     = 750mgP  

 

PROPOSED DEVELOPMENT – 1 No 5 Bed Dwelling 1 x 5 Bed (New Build) = 1x7 Persons     = 7PE Secondary treatment to be installed      = 2mg P/l Daily discharge of Phosphorus = 150 x 7 x 2    = 2100mg P/day Mitigation required a reduction of 125% generated by  development = 2100 x 125%      = 2625mg P/day  

 

EXISTING PHOSPHATE DISCHARGE – 1 No 5 Bed Dwelling 1 x 5 Bed (Existing) = 1x7 Persons      = 7PE Secondary treatment to be installed      = 10mg P/l Daily discharge of Phosphorus = 7 PE x 10mg P/l x 150l   = 10500mg P/day

 

 EXISTING PHOSPHATE DISCHARGE – BioDisc - 1 No 5 Bed Dwelling 1 x 5 Bed (Existing) = 1x7 Persons      = 7PE Secondary treatment to be installed      = 2mg P/l Daily discharge of Phosphorus = 7 PE x 2mg P/l x 150l   = 2100mg P/day

 

 CONCLUSION -

PHOSPHORUS MITIGATION Proposed mitigation to upgrade septic tank for Farmhouse @....      Existing discharge = 150L x 10mgP/L x 7PE    = 10500mg P/day Discharge after upgrade = 150L x 2mgP/L x 7PE   = 2100mg P/day Mitigation Offered is 10500mgP/day – 2100mgP/day  = 8400mg P/day  Mitigation in excess of 125% requirement 

[crooksey]

I like Graf plants, marsh ensign also good. Whats good about the Graf One2Clean is that its one chamber, so any issues down the line, a de sludge and you can get in and fix anything (if needed) not possible in the smaller tanks with multi compartments. Graf also have a very high level of water treatment, so should satisfy any requirement of a PTP (package treatment plant).

[joe90]

I bought through these guys, very helpfull https://www.wte-ltd.co.uk/sewage_treatment_options.html

[saveasteading]

Klargester gets used generically, like hoover, so I wouldn't worry about it. Choose any equivalent, based on price and dimensions. Some need deeper holes. Some need concrete bases.

Only consider air blowing ones.

Diy is simple enough I think, but depends on your skills  esp digging the hole and lifting the tank in.  Ohh and level control, not that all groundworkers can get levels right.

I have only ever used Marsh Industries. 3 times I think, and  they are still my first choice. The first time was after much thpught, and the others because why change? They deliver it themselves and the driver can manhandle it off.

[Kelvin]

Are you sure that the planning condition specifically specifies a Klargester or it’s just what the architect mentioned in the drawings because they always seem to because it’s the default option. 
 

I’m in Perthshire and I installed a Graf One2Clean. You have to apply to SEPA to register your private treatment plant proposal. There’s a form to fill in and you need to include your drainage plans and the specification of the treatment plant. 

[saveasteading]

12 minutes ago, Amateur bob said:

need one that will be sufficient for a 5 bed house

Phone the manufacturer as they know all the rules. Marsh will give you the price too, and your BM gets a commission out of that. Tell them the back story in case a particular klargester model has any significance.

A sampling chamber is good practice too, whether or not planning or regs are asking for one.

Normally I'd email thd planners to say I was using an alterative, but you don't need to here, as the BCI will approve it.

[ProDave]

This is the one I used, I note the company has changed their name, no longer Conder.  You would need a larger version that one is up to 6 persons.  https://www.drainagesuperstore.co.uk/product/rewatec-asp-sewage-treatment-plant.html

 

In a lot of cases which one you choose comes down to availability where you are and transport costs.  I ordered mine from Travis Perkins as they gave the best price including delivery by their own hiab truck.

[Kelvin]

How to size your tank is generally based on a three bed house with a minimum population of 5 people. You then add one person for each additional bedroom so yours would be 5+2. The manufacturers of the plants typically size them like this. Here’s the Graf options for example. However when I was looking I noticed some size them such that you’d need to go to the next one up 
 

https://www.graf.info/en-gb/products/sewage-treatment/sewage-treatment-plants/one2clean.html

Edited February 5 by Kelvin

[saveasteading]

8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

delivery by their own hiab truck

If you could get them to lift it into the hole, that would be a plus.

The next one I do, subject to space and ground type, I may dig a ramp and manhandle it into place on gravel. That removes time pressure from the nagging digger driver ( who thinks getting it level is OTT.

They only weigh about 250kg.

[Thorfun]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

The Biodisk would be my last choice, moving mechanical parts that WILL one day break is not a good idea.

our existing bungalow has a biodisk. started smelling a bit recently. check in it and the disks had stopped moving. called out the local company and the motor was fried due to a seized gear box. £450 +VAT later we have a working Klargester again.

 

can't wait until we demolish this place and move to our nice new Graf system where all i'll have to change is a pump every now and again.

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

can't wait until we demolish this place and move to our nice new Graf system where all i'll have to change is a pump every now and again.

Or just the diaphram which can be diy,ed on most pumps.

[Gone West]

43 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Or just the diaphram which can be diy,ed on most pumps.

Yup, I used to change the diaphragm on my Secoh pump every three years or so. I could then do it at my leisure rather than when it broke.

[Amateur bob]

3 hours ago, Kelvin said:

Are you sure that the planning condition specifically specifies a Klargester or it’s just what the architect mentioned in the drawings because they always seem to because it’s the default option. 
 

I’m in Perthshire and I installed a Graf One2Clean. You have to apply to SEPA to register your private treatment plant proposal. There’s a form to fill in and you need to include your drainage plans and the specification of the treatment plant. 

The foul drainage infrastructure capable of achieving not less than 125% phosphorus mitigation associated with this development shall be undertaken in a phased manner: -  (a) No development shall commence on the approved development site until the mitigating foul drainage infrastructure at the remote property at *********has been installed,

 

this is the condition, so mabye i can use a different one as long as it meets the same emissions as klarg

[Amateur bob]

3 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Klargester gets used generically, like hoover, so I wouldn't worry about it. Choose any equivalent, based on price and dimensions. Some need deeper holes. Some need concrete bases.

Only consider air blowing ones.

Diy is simple enough I think, but depends on your skills  esp digging the hole and lifting the tank in.  Ohh and level control, not that all groundworkers can get levels right.

I have only ever used Marsh Industries. 3 times I think, and  they are still my first choice. The first time was after much thpught, and the others because why change? They deliver it themselves and the driver can manhandle it off.

id prob prefer someone else to do it so its done right are there any good companies in central scotland for this?

[saveasteading]

Its not a specially technical job. There is a right level to ensure for the inlet, make sure the unit is level, push in the inlet pipe. The exit pipe is then at the right level and you carry on to soakaway.

Then there's a burp pipe and a cable. 

From talking to the jcb driver who lifted ours in, it was clear that he'd never seen anyone use a site level or spirit level on one, or a drainage field and he'd probably put in 30 he thought.

Seems to me you need a groundworker that does what you tell them, because they don't know a lot.

BTW the one we sacked didn't look at our designed  gradients and went too steep then told me I was wrong. Grrr. Fortunately he only did a few m of rainwater pipe. That gets expensive if your entire run and tank is too deep.

[Crunchynut]

My Learning points in case they help (sorry - order is a bit random).

-As others have said - definitely an air blower system with no moving parts to go wrong in the tank.

-Take a look at building regs - Part H I believe - has some good guidance best not ignored, and good for you to know so that you know a contractor is doing it right.

-Install it in the summer when the ground water is low - a flooded hole or caving sides is a headache you can do without.

-Make sure concrete is semi dry - if it’s too wet it will put too much pressure on the tank walls as it slumps. I mention this because concrete suppliers  are a mixed bunch and sometimes you get what they bring, regardless of what you asked for. Also they don’t like semi-dry cos it’s a heavier  load for their mixer to churn and wears the gearbox out. At least that’s what my concrete delivery guy told me (in a grumpy manner).
-I reckon all these systems need a bit of tlc from time to time. For that reason I chose a Vortex because the access is via a large lid, whereas some other systems seemed to have a smaller hatch. I also chose a low invert depth model which meant pipe work and adjustments were all near the surface and in easy reach. Invert depth may be dictated by site levels, of course.

-Put plenty of concrete round it. The installation instructions will probably say minimum advised concrete back fill based on ground water because they want their systems installed cost to appear low, and a contractor may also want to get away with minimal concrete. But - if you have to empty it in the middle of winter when ground water is high you don’t want to be worrying about it floating out of the ground because you skimped on a couple of  hundred £ worth of concrete.

 

 

[ProDave]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

If you could get them to lift it into the hole, that would be a plus.

The next one I do, subject to space and ground type, I may dig a ramp and manhandle it into place on gravel. That removes time pressure from the nagging digger driver ( who thinks getting it level is OTT.

They only weigh about 250kg.

The point about the hiab is this is standard with most builders merchants trucks, they are used to unloading pallets of bricks, roof tiles, plasterboard etc.  but before choosing to order from a BM one of the suppliers I was talking to would send it on a flat bed and would require something to lift it off on site.  It would be well outside the reach of my small digger to lift it off a truck.

 

I once tried to get a BM to lift a lintel off their truck straight onto the wall where it was going. They flatly refused.  I used my digger to lower it into the hole and it took 3 goes to get it the right depth and level.

 

This unloading thing when I was ordering windows, and negotiating on price, I found their standard delivery truck would require a crane or telehandler to unload.  I did manage to negotiate delivery on a truck with a hiab at no extra cost.  I really don't know why this is not standard in the building industry.  Though I guess delivering to a large developers site there will always be some lifting gear available.

 

 

[Crunchynut]

I sometimes use a small BM and they don’t have hiabs. I asked about why not and he said the trucks are hugely expensive and the drivers need special certification to operate the crane …. which means for a small BM it’s just too costly.

 

Mine was delivered on a tale lift truck and so got wheeled into my yard on their pallet truck.  Local farmer lowered it into the whole using the front loader on his tractor. 

[Kelvin]

The only two things that came with a HIAB were the scaffolding and blocks from TP. Everything else needed me to unload it with the Telehandler. A few of the trucks had forklifts.