I can't make the kitchen fit! - Floorplan advice sought.

[de devil tail]

It's a long term ambition that's becoming reality, a self build house in the countryside.

 

The new build house is a single storey approx 150m² gross area, the option of using the loft as a 1.5 storey is available.

The layout has been in progress for a while and in general between us and the architect it has evolved into an efficent shape, with some compromises, such as bathrooms with no windows.

Presently the room has a vaulted ceiling, which should help make it feel spacious.

The issue I am facing however is the open plan living/diner/kitchen. I am really struggling to make a decent kitchen in the space.

 

What do you think buildhubbers, what could be done with the space/ floorplan to make a decent family kitchen?

 

[markc]

Do you really need the office and hobby room? 42 sqm isn’t going to allow for much kitchen or a decent sofa etc. can you move something, hobby, office, bedroom into the roof space.

[bassanclan]

To be honest it doesn't look like a great starting plan to begin with.

Three corridors?

Eight external doors?

 

I would design the kitchen you want/need first. Presumably you know what size you currently have and what needs to be added to make it more useful etc. Add in other restrictions like it must have a breakfast bar/island etc

 

Once you have that dimension you can move on to dining area, for instance I want to accommodate a 2400 table, but it is fairly long and narrow so could live with 3600 x 2300, so long as it is not also a thoroughfare etc.

 

 

 

[ProDave]

Our kitchen is about 5 metres by 7 metres, so a little smaller than that.  It makes a good kitchen / diner but although it does have a sofa and a tv in there, it is cramped as a living room, and I would not want to be without our separate living room as well.

[bassanclan]

In this plan of a duplex apartment the kitchen is 10'8" x 9'10"

With the lounge/dining area 22'1"x13'3" but in order to maximize the rental income we built a stud wall partitioning off the area with a balcony as a bedroom and adding a shower into the wc.

 

The door now goes directly in to the kitchen. The area is small, but workable, having said that I wouldn't want it in my own home that I was building!

[Bozza]

I’m assuming v.29 means that is the 29th attempt/version.

I’m really sorry if this sound rude or unhelpful but from a layout perspective my initial thought was I’m amazed a qualified architect has put that together.  Your compromises, namely rooms with no windows, a tiny entrance with outward opening door, inner hallways with no natural light.    It just seems a really odd layout and flow when you’ve got a blank canvas that a self build is, to create something wonderful.

 

and as a result you’re struggling to layout the kitchen living area.

 

I think some of your layout challenges as a bungalow are due the squarish shape of the footprint.  Bungalow layouts seem to work better if more elongated.   You mentioned potential for 1.5.  Have you considered a smaller footprint and go 1.5.  All depends on your circumstances, plot, views, externals and budget of course.

 

As you say it’s a long ambition to self build, and if you love that layout and it’s perfect crack on.  We’ve all had to compromise when buying an already built house, but when self building you should be really happy with your layout.    If you’re not happy with it, stop and rethink.    The last thing you want to do after all the hard work and cost of self building is to have major regrets over a missed opportunity to build something you absolutely love.

 

have a look at the layouts of the bungalows on the Danwood homes website, or similar size.
 

The caveat with my reply is I designed my own house but I am not a qualified architect.  And this is just one opinion. The likes of @ETC are far better qualified.    I appreciate you weren’t asking for comment on the whole layout but some of us feel compelled as members of this community to encourage the best possible success for your project.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[de devil tail]

1 hour ago, markc said:

Do you really need the office and hobby room? 42 sqm isn’t going to allow for much kitchen or a decent sofa etc. can you move something, hobby, office, bedroom into the roof space.

Of course I don't really need the hobby room, however if I would like it to be incorporated as a multi function space including guest bedroom. I can look at utilising the upstairs space.

 

1 hour ago, bassanclan said:

To be honest it doesn't look like a great starting plan to begin with.

Three corridors?

Eight external doors?

 

I would design the kitchen you want/need first. Presumably you know what size you currently have and what needs to be added to make it more useful etc. Add in other restrictions like it must have a breakfast bar/island etc

 

Once you have that dimension you can move on to dining area, for instance I want to accommodate a 2400 table, but it is fairly long and narrow so could live with 3600 x 2300, so long as it is not also a thoroughfare etc.

 

 

 

ahh yes the classic Irishman giving directions "well, I wouldn't start here..."

 

3 corridors, fair cop. I consider  the one by the entrance door to be a windbreak/ coats and boots space. the other 2 I would be delighted to get rid of, any suggestions?

 

No, only 2 external doors, the opening windows show as doors in the model i used. the entrance door and a sliding door on the north end of the west wall in the dining area.

 

I think you have nailed how we ended up here, everything else was worked on and then we found the kitchen doesn't work.

 

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Our kitchen is about 5 metres by 7 metres, so a little smaller than that.  It makes a good kitchen / diner but although it does have a sofa and a tv in there, it is cramped as a living room, and I would not want to be without our separate living room as well.

 

It is a decent sized space in isolation, our design above suffers from the number entrances to the space and the need for a throughfare.

 

54 minutes ago, Bozza said:

I’m assuming v.29 means that is the 29th attempt/version.

I’m really sorry if this sound rude or unhelpful but from a layout perspective my initial thought was I’m amazed a qualified architect has put that together.  Your compromises, namely rooms with no windows, a tiny entrance with outward opening door, inner hallways with no natural light.    It just seems a really odd layout and flow when you’ve got a blank canvas that a self build is, to create something wonderful.

 

and as a result you’re struggling to layout the kitchen living area.

 

I think some of your layout challenges as a bungalow are due the squarish shape of the footprint.  Bungalow layouts seem to work better if more elongated.   You mentioned potential for 1.5.  Have you considered a smaller footprint and go 1.5.  All depends on your circumstances, plot, views, externals and budget of course.

 

As you say it’s a long ambition to self build, and if you love that layout and it’s perfect crack on.  We’ve all had to compromise when buying an already built house, but when self building you should be really happy with your layout.    If you’re not happy with it, stop and rethink.    The last thing you want to do after all the hard work and cost of self building is to have major regrets over a missed opportunity to build something you absolutely love.

 

have a look at the layouts of the bungalows on the Danwood homes website, or similar size.
 

The caveat with my reply is I designed my own house but I am not a qualified architect.  And this is just one opinion. The likes of @ETC are far better qualified.    I appreciate you weren’t asking for comment on the whole layout but some of us feel compelled as members of this community to encourage the best possible success for your project.  

 

 

Yes, v.29 is the 29th iteration, although many iteration have only been minor changes.

 

In truth the guts of this design I had before going to the architect, who has reviewed the layout , but without putting forward a suggestion that made us go wow.

the design is practical, but i have had a nagging for a few weeks now that it is not as good as it should be for a new build/ blank canvas.

 

I have been looking harder at using the potential for 1.5 today. I have been self constraining to square-ish to get a decent area to perimeter ratio, I may be misguided on my use though. Our plot is big, views are of crop fields/pasture, distant neighbours, budget is of course the key. It looks like the days of €1,000m² are over so I am braced for €1,600 - €2,000m²  all in.

 

Highlighted in bold is exactly the reason i have shared the plan today.

 

 

 I appreciate the time everyone has taken to reply

[southcoastseagull]

Hi, just adding my 2 cents as an architect. I think an L shaped, U shaped or H shaped floor plan would provide you with a far superior living space - I wouldn't get hung up too much on area to perimeter ratio. What you're think your saving in cost you're also losing in unnecessary circulation spaces that wouldn't be required with a more efficient floor plan. I wouldn't want to say much more without knowing the particular site constraints and opportunities - views, wind, orientation etc.

Edited December 19, 2023 by southcoastseagull

[ETC]

 It's Ireland - we have 360 degree weather and views!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

Edited December 19, 2023 by ETC

[de devil tail]

10 minutes ago, southcoastseagull said:

Hi, just adding my 2 cents as an architect. I think an L shaped, U shaped or H shaped floor plan would provide you with a far superior living space - I wouldn't get hung up too much on area to perimeter ratio. What you're think your saving in cost you're also losing in unnecessary circulation spaces that wouldn't be required with a more efficient floor plan. I wouldn't want to say much more without knowing the particular site constraints and opportunities - views, wind, orientation etc.

I appreciate the input.

 

Here is our brief.

Site Description

Rural, Eastern Latvia

The size of the plot is a little over 5300m². The site is in the countryside, the soil is mainly clay. There is a gravel road to West, the plot gently slopes away from the road with the highest point being where the old house is located currently. To the East and South of the plot there are farmed crop fields, but to the North right now there is our 4ha pastureland that will be worked in near future. South, West and North borders are surrounded by young thuja plants that will become a shelter from winds, dust and farming chemicals as it grows taller and fuller.

The existing buildings on the site are the old house, a two-storey garage, workshop with a basement under it, log shed, garden shed, and an old cow shed (kūts). All existing buildings will eventually be removed in controlled and logical manner, with replacements ready. The potential order of building removal is:

1.       Log shed and the garden shed

2.       The old house so the new one can be built

3.       Garage that is serving as a living space until the new house is ready to move in

4.       Cow shed – keep until not needed

5.       Workshop with basement – keep until replacement available

There also is a drinking water well and a sewage treatment plant. The site has a 3 phase 11kW electricity connection.

Main constraint on the site is a electricity line that crosses the site halfway North-South direction.

In warm and/or dry days with South, South-West winds there is a lot of dust blown over towards the site. Nearby is a main road that sometimes can be heard if the traffic is busy, and the wind comes from that direction.

There are tall trees on the border with the gravel road that work well as a shelter from the wind and dust but might cause an issue regards shading. We would like to keep as many existing trees as practical but could pragmatically cut those that are most obstructive. A new driveway will be made to the North of the plot.

 

 

The New House

A home for family of 4 people. 2 adults & 2 young children

The aim is to build a practical, functional and elegant home that will provide a comfortable and healthy environment. The family will be living, relaxing, working and feel entertained in this space. The house should be built to last with ability to change for aging occupants (Lifetime Homes standard).

The house should have potential of modern technology addition when resources are available (for example, Smart Home Technology). The aim of the house design is to practically maximise the interior space and minimise the exterior wall area, i.e., by having a square floorplan or close to a square shape rectangle. While there is a desire to include some visually interesting features in the house design, low budget and the house being functional must be kept as priorities. The house should be low maintenance, for example, no need to paint the exterior walls, quick access to any servicing, all pipes are in ducts and cables are in conduit that allows easy repair or replacement. Hot water runs/pipes are kept as short as possible (group the rooms that need water connections together). Water wasting should be kept to a minimum by reusing the water or harvesting and treating the rainwater for use in the house.

The priority of the design and construction is to obtain a house whose foundations, floor, walls and roof will provide a well-sealed thermal envelope with controlled ventilation. All utilities are preferred to be run using electrical power, which would be harnessed using solar energy, that would be stored by the building as heat in the construction elements and water as well as a battery near the building. Heating and cooling solutions should be oversized as practically as possible to account for future climate changes.

Regards building materials we would prefer the construction of the house to be either stone or low CO₂ concrete or blocks. The insulation detailing shall be to Passive House standards. Materials shall be used smartly to minimise the waste. A pitched or double pitched roof is envisaged. A 1, 1.5 or 2 storey house is possible and even the ability to prepare the second floor for later use if needed, but not included into the initial house project if budget does not allow.

The interior design should borrow ideas from Tiny House storage solutions to try and achieve 250m² house fitting into 140 m² – 160m² floorplan. It is acceptable to assign multiple purposes to same space, for example, hobbies, games and relaxing area could be assigned to the guest bedroom.  Internal acoustics of the house should ensure that background noises and noise through walls is minimised. Depending on the floorplan, there might be an opportunity for internal view connections, for example, an internal window of the office that visually connects the space with the rest of the house but is isolated from the sounds. Preference is given to tall and wide doors for ease of occupant and furniture flow. Windows shall be large to optimise the light and heat from the sun reaching inside the house, especially on the South side.

Preferably there would be a space for outside dining like decking with adjustable sunshades and wind screens.

There is a planned connection from the house to an outside garage where 2 cars and bicycles will be kept out of the weather. The garage is envisioned to be outside of the Passive House thermal envelope, and its positioning will aid blocking the cold Northen winds from the house itself.  

[joe90]

Personally I prefer a kitchen diner and separate lounge/snug which is what I built and also the one I live in now.

[southcoastseagull]

I'd go for something like this, it's a very undeveloped idea just a kind of conceptual sketch. There'd be plenty of scope to include a separate office room in this design too with some further work.

 

I also have to young kids, and the advantage of a layout like this is that they can have their bedrooms in their own wing of the house when they're teenagers. While young they'd be in the bedroom close to you.

 

Also a note, on your current floor plans your external walls are drawn incredibly thin - I would think they'd need to be at least 400mm+

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by southcoastseagull

[Bozza]

@de devil tail  your requirements are not particularly unusual and it seems you are not restricted in what you can build.  So there should be no reason not to have a strong layout.  There’s probably hundreds of house layouts online that would give you what you need or that you can tweak.  again I’d refer you to Danwood homes website for ideas especially as it’s german/polish architecture. 

If you have budgetry limitations it is always cheaper to go up.  Building a bungalow with a view to converting at a later stage probably isn’t going save you any money and a lot of hassle at a later stage.

 

In the circumstances you describe I’d definitely just build a 1.5 or 2 story house.  Well designed it doesn’t even have to be as big as 250 sqm to feel spacious.    Just make sure your downstairs has potential future bedroom and bathroom space.

 

 

 

 

[Iceverge]

2 hours ago, southcoastseagull said:

I think an L shaped, U shaped or H shaped floor plan would provide you with a far superior living space - I wouldn't get hung up too much on area to perimeter ratio.

 

It depends on who's paying I suppose. 

 

Lets work an example. 

 

 

 

Here's a quick sketch of 4 options and assuming a 3m high external wall. 

 

At say €150 per m2 of external wall there's over €11,000 of difference in build cost. That's before you account for the old blocklayers adage that every corner ads €10k to the house overall in added labour, waste and complexity. The "H" costs €80k more in that case than the plain square. Maybe not exact but I would be surprised if I was too far off. 

 

Departing from the perfect square isn't too terrible or even an "L" but once you look at other funny shapes they costs really escalate. 

 

 

 

[Iceverge]

 

 

1700 Model — GO LOGIC

 

 

For a small single story house I really like this. 

 

Just square out the two notches in the rear of the heated envelope to make it easier and cheaper to build. 

 

 

[Mr Punter]

39 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

 

 

1700 Model — GO LOGIC

 

 

For a small single story house I really like this. 

 

Just square out the two notches in the rear of the heated envelope to make it easier and cheaper to build. 

 

 

 

I don't like all the bedrooms directly off the living space.  No privacy.

[Iceverge]

17 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

I don't like all the bedrooms directly off the living space.  No privacy.

 

Not to everyone's taste for sure. There is a see through bookcase creating a semi corridor if you look at the pics on the website. 

 

[ETC]

[bassanclan]

Cheaper to build a square block 50sqm 3 storey house than a square block 150sqm bungalow, even if you have to put in extra future proofing stair lifts etc

[ETC]

13 hours ago, bassanclan said:

Cheaper to build a square block 50sqm 3 storey house than a square block 150sqm bungalow, even if you have to put in extra future proofing stair lifts etc

[de devil tail]

19 hours ago, ETC said:

Thanks @ETC I can read most of those spaces but i am struggling with the centre section and the 3 spaces on the right between bedrooms. Could you elaborate on them?

 

18 hours ago, bassanclan said:

Cheaper to build a square block 50sqm 3 storey house than a square block 150sqm bungalow, even if you have to put in extra future proofing stair lifts etc

It may well be,  but life on 3 floors isn't something I would be willing to try with my money

 

 

I have banished the flex room to upstairs, and given the north west end to entrance lobby. A stairs to seperate the spaces looks interesting , may need some further development. its small steps. i have looking at the danwood homes and the plans are similar to what ETC has drawn above. I am working through ideas and taking on your suggestions.

 

[ETC]

You should also look at contemporary Polish architecture especially on Pinterest. Let me know if you want me to do a quick sketch plan.

[de devil tail]

On 21/12/2023 at 00:04, ETC said:

You should also look at contemporary Polish architecture especially on Pinterest. Let me know if you want me to do a quick sketch plan.

Thanks @ETC, I'll take a look an see what I can find, is there a stand out feature of it?

[ETC]

There is - it is very contemporary and simple.

[de devil tail]

 

A late night mash up of the design from ETC and other thoughts I have. nothing final but a change in my thought direction.

 

I did look at some of the pinterest results for Polish contemporary architecture, I found some stunning designs using regular shapes placed on irregular planes, I really appreciate the design and look, but I don't have the courage to commission that as a first time self build.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by de devil tail