ProDave Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 This scheme is going through planning near us. https://www.cromartyhydrogenproject.co.uk/ It is an "electrolyser" plant to be build close to one of the wind farms near us. So it will take electricity from the windfarm and electrolyse that to produce "green hydrogen". So dig down and find some more details. The water will be conveyed from a pumping station at a water treatment works about 20 miles away. So that will be potable or near potable water pumped nearly 20 miles and about 400 metres up. The hydrogen produced will be taken by road transport to a number of distilleries to "decarbonose their energy supply" My thoughts: This wind farm does not have "surplus" generation, everything it generates goes to the grid. Anything taken from the wind farm for the electrolyser just means less goes to the grid for general use, which in the real world results in more fossil fuel used to generate the "lost" electricity. The water to electrolyse needs to be pumped there, So that is energy use I bet they have not thoroughly accounted for. I hope the trucks transporting the hydrogen are themselves powered by hydrogen. But the final thought, would it not just be simpler for the distilleries just to use electricity for their production? I refuse to believe electrolysing water to make hydrogen, then transporting that hydrogen by truck to then burn it can produce more power to the end use process than just using electricity from the grid. If ever there was a case of "greenwash" this has to be it? If schemes like this that are at best "creative" with the facts are allowed to proceed then we are all being conned that they are "solving" the problem. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 It's the way thing are going, Scotland has already pre-sold lots of 'green' hydrogen to the Netherlands for one. Think we can already produce over 100% of the grid requirements on a windy day and more so overnight. So why not? Easy to implement, uses spinning reserves needs very little storage space per kWh. If a turbine is being turned off because it's energy isn't needed, make stored energy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted December 17, 2023 Author Share Posted December 17, 2023 Just using surplus wind generation that cannot be otherwise used, makes sense. But that is not what is being proposed here as far as I can see. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 Agreed. I'm an avid green-wash debunker. I did a speyside distillery tour 3 weeks ago and asked about the fuel. Research of course. All electric. The maltings is at Keith and does the heating of the barley,then drying again using electricity, and for many distilleries I think. The distillery in the hills uses electricity. 3 or 4 tankers every day leave this one famous distillery, full of freshly distilled whisky. They run on diesel. There are big claims about how 'green' they are. Using electricity from wind farms suits their story, and there was a slight embarrassment about using diesel, so maybe they want to use hydrogen and would pay over the odds for it. Your logic is sound I think. If there was surplus energy then this might make sense. I assume there is a secondary product of oxygen. But meanwhile there are plans to build new power lines heading south so it will be all gone. Oh, and you in the Highlands still pay for your power on the rate governed by gas. I'l read the article later. I feel a message, about this, to the distillery, coming on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, JohnMo said: If a turbine is being turned off because it's energy isn't needed, make stored energy. That's a good question. Are they being turned off? I had this picture of hydrogen-free water being tipped into the river. How silly of me: it will be hydrogen and oxygen free of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 It is greenwashing. Hydrogen will be a useful fuel for aviation, but so would ammonia, and we already have the infrastructure in place for that (how we make fertilisers). As for the placement and 'moving stuff about', as it is a pilot plant, it will probably have a visitor centre as well (more opportunities to hood wink). The water used in these types of electrolyser has to be a lot purer than tap water. This is partly why the EIEO ratio is so bad. That and the compressing/cooling of the gases for storage. I am in two minds about hydrogen as a fuel, it is useful in places i.e. long distance travel. But then trains are good for that as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, saveasteading said: They run on diesel. Most the road transport is completed by another company, one of wife's relatives works as a driver, they have hydrogen and electric lorries on order apparently - on the order of the distillery companies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 8 minutes ago, JohnMo said: If a turbine is being turned off because it's energy isn't needed, make stored energy A bit more pumped storage may be better (hydro or air). Thermal storage is probably the cheapest and easiest way to store surplus, and we already have the infrastructure for that. Just make E7 E8 or 9 some days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 22 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: EIEO ratio How does Old MacDonald fit into this? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 8 minutes ago, saveasteading said: How does Old MacDonald fit into this? Where I live, MacDonald is a restaurant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted December 17, 2023 Author Share Posted December 17, 2023 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Where I live, MacDonald is a restaurant. That is stretching the imagination a bit isn't it? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 1 hour ago, saveasteading said: How does Old MacDonald fit into this? There is an “I” missing/but I got it 🤣’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 33 minutes ago, joe90 said: There is an “I” missing/but I got it It has been a long day, had the Landrover club turn up for breakfast, so you will have to explain it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 3 hours ago, saveasteading said: How does Old MacDonald fit into this? Altogether now: And on his windfarm he had a hydrogen production plant EIEIO 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, saveasteading said: Altogether now: And on his windfarm he had a hydrogen production plant EIEIO I did work it out after I had had a mug of tea. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001t353 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001t9vd Edited December 17, 2023 by SteamyTea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Walker Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 (edited) You can probably make more money producing hydrogen than selling electricity to the grid. Electric cables are very expensive to install to connect to the grid and the output is unpredictable on a daily basis, on an annual basis it's a lot better. Edited December 17, 2023 by Adrian Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnMo Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 8 minutes ago, Adrian Walker said: You can probably make more money producing hydrogen than selling electricity to the grid. Electric cables are very expensive to install to connect to the grid and the output is unpredictable on a daily basis, on an annual basis it's a lot better. That ties in well with what I heard last year, onshore wind turbines (allowed in Scotland) with hydrogen plant in the base, lorry comes around to collect it on regular basis. The tech issue is storage without great expense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuerteStu Posted December 17, 2023 Share Posted December 17, 2023 5 hours ago, saveasteading said: How does Old MacDonald fit into this? That song gets a while lot sadder or scarier when you realise everything is in past tense.. He 'had' a farm.. And 'had' a dog.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted December 18, 2023 Share Posted December 18, 2023 There seems to be something missing from this discussion. It's all about trying to iron out the peaks and troughs of energy production, all be it in a different way.... We have the same problem at our home, but on a much much smaller scale: Our PV energy production during the year is more than enough to meet our needs.... if only we could store it from the summer until the winter. If we were to go off grid we would need an energy production system that produced our needs over the winter which would be idle over half the year when considering the yearly cycle, and on a immediate basis, to some extent, all year. We could have a much smaller immediate energy production system during peak demand, if peak demand was supplemented because of stored energy. As I understand it, energy produced for the national grid uses systems that, whilst can produce electricity at the flick of a switch, require a long lead in time to be ready to flick the switch. When looking at this graph you can see that the higher fluctuating energy producers - wind wave and solar - are producing an increasing percentage of our energy demands. However they are less reliable in there ability to supply demand. (The one exception being wave which for some mad reason is not being utilised). This means the power has to come from other sources like gas or nuclear. Taking a simplistic view of the situation you could say that the gas and nuclear energy suppliers have to be able to cover the wind and solar supply demand at any moment. Everybody is trying to break the problem of energy demand and energy storage and this is just another spoke in the wheel. About 60% of UK household energy use is for space heating and about 35% of UK's electricity is domestic use. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted December 18, 2023 Share Posted December 18, 2023 2 minutes ago, Marvin said: The one exception being wave which for some mad reason is not being utilised Not a mad reason it is not utilised. Find a wave machine anywhere that has worked reliably, then ask the manufacturers to pay back my local council who invested heavily in WaveHub. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saveasteading Posted December 18, 2023 Share Posted December 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Marvin said: wave which for some mad reason is not being utilised). It's difficult to harness wave power. It goes up and down randomly and tides change in level. I recall a researcher in my hydraulics lab at uni, many decades ago, and noticed that study continuing over the years.. It never quite became viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted December 18, 2023 Share Posted December 18, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Not a mad reason it is not utilised. Find a wave machine anywhere that has worked reliably, then ask the manufacturers to pay back my local council who invested heavily in WaveHub. HI @SteamyTea and @saveasteading https://tethys.pnnl.gov/project-sites/meygen-tidal-energy-project Mygen: To date, the site has two of four turbines fully operational and generated its first 50 GWh of renewable power in February 2023. The project aims to have the additional turbines operating by 2027. Good luck asking for money... Edited December 18, 2023 by Marvin further thought 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted December 18, 2023 Share Posted December 18, 2023 12 minutes ago, saveasteading said: It's difficult to harness wave power. It goes up and down randomly and tides change in level. I recall a researcher in my hydraulics lab at uni, many decades ago, and noticed that study continuing over the years.. It never quite became viable. I think designs have changed over the years. I think someone thought "why don't we put the wind turbine under the sea..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Post and beam Posted December 18, 2023 Share Posted December 18, 2023 When i was a submariner in a previous life it was the 'Lysers' that gave everyone the frighteners. And thats with a Nuclear reactor next door. They used very high current, very high temperatures and very high pressures. They were not the most reliable devices you could imagine. Think the French lost at least one boat to a failure of such a thing. Just sayin.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted December 18, 2023 Share Posted December 18, 2023 I tried googling “lysers” but didn’t find anything, can you expand @Post and beam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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