Clean Heat Market Mechanism to incentivise heat pumps

[Roger440]

1 minute ago, JamesPa said:

Er not quite a token gesture (led donestic lighting is the token gesture).  Heating activities are about one third of uk carbon emissions and domestic is about half of this, nearly 20 percent.

 

Giving up completely, which you appear to advocate, is somewhat defeatist don't you think?  Is that really your view, forget it all and be damned?

 

No. We should be investing on dealing with the consequences of the inevitable.

 

The idea that we can stop what will happen is for the birds. 

 

Eventually reality will set in, but again, it will likely be too late.

[Roger440]

11 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

How about a second hand MVHR unit. Should keep a good handle on humidity even without a heating? 

 

 

 

Hmmmm. Hadnt thought of that. Interesting.

[JamesPa]

Just now, Roger440 said:

 

No. We should be investing on dealing with the consequences of the inevitable.

 

The idea that we can stop what will happen is for the birds. 

 

Eventually reality will set in, but again, it will likely be too late.

Or do both, ie deal with the inevitable and avert the even worse?

[Roger440]

12 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

As your happy with oil heating - other makes available 

 

https://www.toolstation.com/sip-fireball-74xrdt-infrared-diesel-heater/p47425?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=googleshoppingfeed&mkwid=_dm&pcrid=null&pkw=null&pmt=null&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiA4Y-sBhC6ARIsAGXF1g5RA5zKw194gJVp01XYL2z1j0OMgqsCvvey_aE2XuApaJoETvk9YJIaAki2EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

Didnt know they exsisted either. 

 

Sadly though, fumes inside an almost air tight room probably not good for my health. 

 

Shame, as theres a 1200 litre red disel tank the other side of the wall!

[SteamyTea]

Kerosene is all good that is needed. Burn the sun out of the sky.

Montol tonight.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Roger440]

1 minute ago, JamesPa said:

Or do both, ie deal with the inevitable and avert the even worse?

 

We cant deal with both. Most of the world will just carry on. We will just spend a huge amount of money to have no measurable effect. 

 

Focus on the consequences that are inevitable to some degree.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

The idea that we can stop what will happen is for the birds

Of cause we can stop it.

We know what the problem is, what is he solutions are, and how to pay for it.

 

Just a matter of getting on with it, just like it has been for 30 years.

[Roger440]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

Of cause we can stop it.

We know what the problem is, what is he solutions are, and how to pay for it.

 

Just a matter of getting on with it, just like it has been for 30 years.

 

We could get on with it. But for no purpose as most countries wont.

 

The planet is populated with humans. How humans behave is pretty well understood. The outcome is inevitable. Ive no idea how you get people to be voluntarily significantly poorer be some future far off unclear, uncertain benefit.

 

But no, i dont believe we can stop it now. If we even ever could.

 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

no idea how you get people to be voluntarily significantly poorer

Why, and how does it make people poorer?

It is just moving capital from one industry to another.

A million people working in the oil industry or working in the renewable energy industry, is the same thing.

Remember when computers were going to take all our jobs? Printer sales expanded, as did IT support workers.

[ProDave]

My take is we have to do what we reasonably can.  That is somewhere between the environmentalists that think we can all stop burning oil tomorrow and we only carry on doing so because we like doing so, and those that think it is all a load of nonsense.

 

If for no other reason than we can't just go on burning oil because it will run out.  so lets be sensible and transition to renewable energy as quickly as we reasonably can.

 

What continues to bug me is WHY such high figures keep coming up for fitting heat pumps?  Yes if you have to completely change your heating system then costs can add up, but as a self builder building a new house, whatever system I fitted i wanted under floor heating and a hot water tank.  So it was literally choose an oil boiler and an oil tank (no gas here) or an ASHP.  There really was no additional cost, in fact I think my ASHP cost less than an oil boiler and tank would have done.

 

With the grants for ASHP's at the moment I see exactly what happened with solar PV and the FIT.  Installed prices to customers were inflated to it was largely the installers benefiting from grant not the customer.  When the FIT was scrapped, solar PV prices fell, and without the MCS cartel being mandatory, anyone could fit them.

 

There should be no ifs no buts, oil and gas boilers should be banned from new builds now.  As i have shown, there really is no price penalty to pay for an ASHP in a new build, so there should be no need for any form of grant.  Just write it into building regs, no fossil fuel boilers.

 

 

[Roger440]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

Why, and how does it make people poorer?

It is just moving capital from one industry to another.

A million people working in the oil industry or working in the renewable energy industry, is the same thing.

Remember when computers were going to take all our jobs? Printer sales expanded, as did IT support workers.

 

If i take little old me, i need to spend a hefty 5 figure sum. That i dont otherwise need to spend.

 

I will need a car too. Another hefty 5 figure sum.

 

The governments own, very loose estimates are £100 to 200K additional expenditure per household between now and 2050 to get to net zero.

 

I dont have that kind of money to spare. Maybe others do. Good for them. I wasnt that smart. Maybe those smarter people can pay for my new heating, insulation and car? No? I thought not.

 

Im not sure how your "moving capital" helps me or the average man on the clapham omnibus avoid that hit. And its direct affect on my life and living standards.

 

Im all ears how i can do all those things without being worse off?

[Roger440]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 

What continues to bug me is WHY such high figures keep coming up for fitting heat pumps?  Yes if you have to completely change your heating system then costs can add up, but as a self builder building a new house, whatever system I fitted i wanted under floor heating and a hot water tank.  So it was literally choose an oil boiler and an oil tank (no gas here) or an ASHP.  There really was no additional cost, in fact I think my ASHP cost less than an oil boiler and tank would have done.

 

With the grants for ASHP's at the moment I see exactly what happened with solar PV and the FIT.  Installed prices to customers were inflated to it was largely the installers benefiting from grant not the customer.  When the FIT was scrapped, solar PV prices fell, and without the MCS cartel being mandatory, anyone could fit them.

 

There should be no ifs no buts, oil and gas boilers should be banned from new builds now.  As i have shown, there really is no price penalty to pay for an ASHP in a new build, so there should be no need for any form of grant.  Just write it into building regs, no fossil fuel boilers.

 

 

 

You answerred your own question! Grants. The end.

 

MCS, just a cartel. More free money.

 

All of which shows, no one in control is interested in the environmental aspect. Just how much money they can extract from the public purse and anyone else that wants to play the game.

 

I dont know how you work out there no price penalty on a new installation though? Whilst my house is pre-existing, the workshop isnt. Still cheaper with oil, primarily as the capital cost is lower.

 

Although in my case, the incoming supply is an additional factor. £17k + VAT to sort out. Which makes oil a no brainer. ASHP is more expensive to start with before you add £17k!! Just nuts. Bulk of which is non contestable work.

[JohnMo]

7 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

The governments own, very loose estimates are £100 to 200K additional expenditure per household between now and 2050 to get to net zero.

No idea where that cost comes from, lots of PV, battery and ASHP, house running costs way less, not more.

 

2 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Although in my case, the incoming supply is an additional factor. £17k + VAT to sort out. Which makes oil a no brainer. ASHP is more expensive to start with before you add £17k!! Just nuts. Bulk of which is non contestable work.

No idea what this means - what incoming supply?

[JamesPa]

23 minutes ago, ProDave said:

What continues to bug me is WHY such high figures keep coming up for fitting heat pumps?  Yes if you have to completely change your heating system then costs can add up, but as a self builder building a new house, whatever system I fitted i wanted under floor heating and a hot water tank.  So it was literally choose an oil boiler and an oil tank (no gas here) or an ASHP.  There really was no additional cost, in fact I think my ASHP cost less than an oil boiler and tank would have done.

It's a closed shop with rigid rules and carefully designed ways  to exclude newcomers and stifle innovation

There is a government subsidy

And much of the market is retrofit,  which is a different design skill that many installers (in part understandably) don't like, because it involves them taking risk and responsibility rather than painting by numbers.

 

So we end up with poorly yet over engineered system designs replacing many unnecessary components causing more disruption than necessary and thus costing more, which is easily disguised in an unnecessary or unnecessarily extensive hot water system/pipework replacement/buffer tank or whatever, and the grant.

Edited December 21, 2023 by JamesPa

[Roger440]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

No idea where that cost comes from, lots of PV, battery and ASHP, house running costs way less, not more.

 

No idea what this means - what incoming supply?

 

Sorry, Incoming electrical supply. theres already a house plus a big workshop attached to it. Rather marginal. A unique issue to me ill admit. Theres no way it would support heat pumps on both workshop and house. Unless i come up with some wheeze to manage the load of the workshop equipment V heating.

 

Probably best ignore that aspect for the purpuses of the thread. Maybe i should resurrect my barn heating thread.

[Roger440]

5 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

 

And much of the market us retrofit,  which is a different design skill that many installers don't like, because it involves them taking risk and responsibility 

 

And the only way to cover taking that risk on attaching stuff to used heating systems is either, replace everything, or jack up the price to cover those risks and inevitable call backs. Im not sure i see any reason why anyone should take that risk and responsibiluty for no reward. Bankruptcy is the only assured outcome if you do.

 

Back to Daves "expensive" systems. 

[JamesPa]

23 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Im not sure how your "moving capital" helps me or the average man on the clapham omnibus avoid that hit. And its direct affect on my life and living standards.

Er don't you think coastal cities or London flooding will be a direct hit on your living standards.  Or storms which destroy houses and toss your car down the road, or mass migration due to displaced communities, or more likely war and starvation?   You obviously feel very secure and certain that things will just carry on without materially affecting you.  Unless you are a billionaire, you aren't secure and they won't.

Edited December 21, 2023 by JamesPa

[Roger440]

Just now, JamesPa said:

Er don't you think coastal cities or London flooding will be a direct hit on your living standards.  Or storms which destroy houses and toss your car down the road, or mass migration due to displaced communities, or mire likely war and starvation?

 

Assuming thats an outcome, which it would seem is possible, do you really think we can stop it. By buggering around with heat pumps in the UK? Really? We are 1% of the problem.

 

If thats whats going to happen, we wont stop that. We will need to build a wall or relocate stuff.  Refer to my investment suggestion. Though it will make us poor also, so cant imagine that will happen either.

[JamesPa]

4 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Assuming thats an outcome, which it would seem is possible, do you really think we can stop it. By buggering around with heat pumps in the UK? Really? We are 1% of the problem.

 

If thats whats going to happen, we wont stop that. We will need to build a wall or relocate stuff.  Refer to my investment suggestion. Though it will make us poor also, so cant imagine that will happen either.

If buggering around with heat pumps were the only thing happening then of course not.  But it isnt and change gains momentum unless too many luddites resist.

 

As to building a wall, forget it as any kind of long term solution.  You won't stop the forces of nature. 

Edited December 21, 2023 by JamesPa

[Roger440]

6 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

You won't stop the forces of nature. 

 

Quite. My point entirely.

[Beelbeebub]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

Ive no idea how you get people to be voluntarily significantly poorer

Stick a slogan on the side of a bus, that should do it.

[Iceverge]

3 minutes ago, Beelbeebub said:

Stick a slogan on the side of a bus, that should do it.

 

There's another thread for that!!

 

 

 

[Iceverge]

If I was dictator for a week I would:

 

1. Tackle planning reform with a sledgehammer. Make it very easy to build wind farms and solar PV installs, pumped storage and grid upgrades. 

 

2. Reform house planning. I've said it before. A walk-in, same day service to rebuild your house. Trying to retrofit old houses is a waste of time. With enormous cost you might get an existing houses to enerphit standards. Much cheaper to knock and build a new passivhaus of an economical design. That's where we need to be. 

 

3. Then build as much renewable electricity generation as possible and sell it at a cheap rate to compete fossil fuels out of the market. 

 

4. Build houses well above historic flooding levels, well above sea level, able to cope with months of heatwaves and low water supply levels. Tropical downpours and hurricane wind levels. Climate change is here. No point in pretending it's not. 

 

 

[Beelbeebub]

26 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

 

There's another thread for that!!

 

 

 

Yeah sorry!  Was too easy. 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Then build as much renewable electricity generation as possible and sell it at a cheap rate to compete fossil fuels out of the market. 

Hornsea 3 is going ahead.