Largest outbuilding possible with planning permission?

[optimystery]

I'm an artist looking to move up and further out of London, probably North London or surrounding areas with good rail connections.
There's lots of information online about garden studio/office buldings within planning regs, below 30 square metres.
Does anyone know of examples of something closer to 50 square metres?
This is probably the size I would need, with at least a 3m apex.
It would need to be plumbed with a washup area, and I'd be installing extraction for fumes too.
I would be basing my choice of property on having a garden large enough to allow this type of building, and a local authority who would grant planning permission.
Trying to rent studios around London is just not a viable option anymore - too expensive, non-ideal spaces, hardly ever available and at risk of closure at any time etc.
If anyone has any advice or examples it would be greatly appreciated.

[joe90]

Below 30 sq meters is  building regs thing not planning if you are looking at “permitted development” (planning not needed) then look at this.  https://www.planningportal.co.uk/permission/responsibilities/planning-permission/permitted-development-rights

[SteamyTea]

Welcome.

Assuming planned is not an obstacle, you can make an outbuilding out of just about anything you like. There may be some fire regulations to comply with though.

 

What sort of art do you create that involved fumes?

[joe90]

Buildings over 30 square metres will always need to be Building Regulation compliant.

[DevilDamo]

What exactly are you asking… the Planning/Building Regulation rules or a site/plot that is big enough to accommodate such an outbuilding? If it’s the latter, this isn’t the right forum for you.

[optimystery]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Welcome.

Assuming planned is not an obstacle, you can make an outbuilding out of just about anything you like. There may be some fire regulations to comply with though.

 

What sort of art do you create that involved fumes?

Oil paints, thinners, laser cutting, solvent-based spraypaint (maybe done in an outdoor area as it stinks for ages)

[optimystery]

It was a general question. Apologies if this is more of a 'how' than a 'what' forum!
I would assume a larger structure like this would need to be or would benefit from being at least partially brick-built, as well as timber.
The question is basically about what can be done, assuming that I apply for planning permission to build something larger than 30m.
I couldn't find any info or examples of such a structure in a house garden, and was wondering if anyone knows if it's even possible, is there any precedent etc.

[optimystery]

It's more about asking if such a planning permission request is ever likely to be granted?

Do people sometimes build larger structures in a house garden, assuming it isn't larger than 50% of the garden space etc.

If so, how difficult is the planning process, how likely is it to be approved etc

And any other considerations that I may not have thought about, such as how a larger than 30m sq structure would need to be built

[joe90]

People build complete houses in gardens so anything is possible , try looking at your local planning website for examples in your area of what has been achieved.

[ProDave]

Does it have to be all one building?  A collection of smaller ones for different uses might make more sense, e.g one set up as a spray booth with ventilation.

[optimystery]

Thanks, I will start checking local authorities, though I would imagine it could be like searching for a needle in a haystack.. not very common thing for people to do.

Yes, it could be multiple buildings. I might be doing woodworking as well, so a messy room and a clean room would make sense.
I didn't see information about what's permitted as total space with multiple buildings. Are there rules for that?

I think if I could see at least one case study or details of such a project, then I would at least know it's possible.
None of the garden office websites advertise or feature anything larger than 25-30.
Perhaps an architecture website somewhere has an example of something bespoke but I didn't find it yet.

The reason for asking the question is really to start planning a move - I don't know exactly where yet, as it may depend on which councils are more amenable, and where large gardens are available.
I need to know if I'm barking up the right tree by thinking of doing this. Without any examples it's hard to know.
If somebody has built one, or knows of one, has a link to an example, that would help me decide.

[Russell griffiths]

If you are doing this for commercial gain and not a hobby, I would think you would struggle to get any planning for this in an urban environment. 

Having admitted you will need an extraction system because of the paint fumes, getting consent for this will be hard, if not impossible. 

 

Most car  painters I know have all changed to water based paints due to regulations. 

 

Ive always had large workshops and storage at home and found it increasingly hard to not have the council knocking on my door weekly after a neighbour had been moaning. 

 

I would look look at how many times you actually need to come into London and find an area with good transport, but far outside the M25. 

 

[optimystery]

Thanks, I am looking at Hertfordshire, much of which is outside the M25.
Maybe as you suggest, if neighbours are not likely to be so close as to notice any smells or noise that might be best.
It won't be industrial scale extraction, but would be needed even for acrylic (water-based) paints, which also smell when used on large canvases.
And anyone using a laser cutter, even as a hobby, should be using extraction.
Art is my livelihood yes, so having a functioning studio is a requirement.

I've asked a few architects what they think, and will ask around amongst artists too. Sadly most of them just make work within what's possible in small spaces available.

[Conor]

Sounds like a commercial use, so if in a residential area, planning will be required no matter the size (even if an existing structure, as would be a change of use.) Might be better off leasing an industrial unit where you won't have so many hurdles? 

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, optimystery said:

Oil paints

Viewing this oil painting in St. Ives at the moment.

A Stuart Thorn. Actually acrylic.

 

 

[Roger440]

You apppear to be fixated on 30sqm. This has NOTHING to do with planning. This is for building regilations approval.

 

Planning is entirely seperate. Providing you stay within the permitted development rules (someone else posted the link), no planning is required at all. But building regs is aplicable over 30sqm.

 

Undersaand the 2 are not related in any way.

[Bozza]

For multiple outbuildings as permitted development there are additional rules regarding spacing & the % of ground they occupy.  

Depending on budget, you may find it a challenge to find a property within budget that’s got a big enough garden for what you want.

 

maybes a house with a garage so you can utilise the garage plus an outbuilding.  
 

I maximised the permitted development rules to build a barn/workshop.  One half of it is vaulted double height  the other half has an upper and lower section.  The upper section is just storage of course.  Obviously you’d need something with more windows.

 

 

 

 

[optimystery]

31 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

You apppear to be fixated on 30sqm. This has NOTHING to do with planning. This is for building regilations approval.

 

Planning is entirely seperate. Providing you stay within the permitted development rules (someone else posted the link), no planning is required at all. But building regs is aplicable over 30sqm.

 

Undersaand the 2 are not related in any way.

Ok, I've checked some articles and it seems this was changed at some point, and now the 50% rule takes precedence, and there's no limit (in theory)
I was originally under the impression that permitted development meant in practice, under 30 sq m, within 2m of boundaries and less than 50% of the garden space.
And anything else would require planning permission.
That's anecdotal though because you don't see anything bigger than 30 sq m on any of those garden office websites, and I wondered why.
Maybe building regs approval adds so much to the cost..

Over 15sq m requires building regs approval, which seems to mean fire retardant materials?

Edited November 30, 2023 by optimystery

[optimystery]

18 minutes ago, Bozza said:

For multiple outbuildings as permitted development there are additional rules regarding spacing & the % of ground they occupy.  

Depending on budget, you may find it a challenge to find a property within budget that’s got a big enough garden for what you want.

 

maybes a house with a garage so you can utilise the garage plus an outbuilding.  
 

I maximised the permitted development rules to build a barn/workshop.  One half of it is vaulted double height  the other half has an upper and lower section.  The upper section is just storage of course.  Obviously you’d need something with more windows.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I am thinking this may be more realistic. 6x5m sq outbuilding plus a garage or double garage would probably work.
Adding extraction might be tricky, but would only be needed in one of the spaces.

Is your shed 5x3m?

Edited November 30, 2023 by optimystery

[Roger440]

19 minutes ago, optimystery said:

I was under the impression that permitted development meant in practice, under 30 sq m, within 2m of boundaries and less than 50% of the garden space.
And anything else would require planning permission. That's anecdotal though. You don't see anything bigger than 30 sq m on any oof those garden office websites, and I assume that's why.

Over 15sq m requires building regs approval

 

30sqm has nothing to do with it. The 50% of garden does. You are confusing two entirely seperate subjects.

 

You can build right up to the boundary if you want, though that does invoke a 2.5m height limit as opposed to 4.

 

Its all in the link posted earlier.

 

The reason most stuff is under 30sqm is to avoid the need to get tangled up in buiding control and the large increase in costs that invariably follow.

 

I say again. planning and building control are disctinctly seperate things.

[optimystery]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

 

30sqm has nothing to do with it. The 50% of garden does. You are confusing two entirely seperate subjects.

 

You can build right up to the boundary if you want, though that does invoke a 2.5m height limit as opposed to 4.

 

Its all in the link posted earlier.

 

The reason most stuff is under 30sqm is to avoid the need to get tangled up in buiding control and the large increase in costs that invariably follow.

 

I say again. planning and building control are disctinctly seperate things.

Gotcha, thanks. I think that answers my question as far as what's legal and possible.
So, the building regs compliant studio of 50sq m should be possible if the garden and house is big enough.
Planning permission might be required for adding extractiion.
Does that sound right?

[Roger440]

4 minutes ago, optimystery said:

Gotcha, thanks. I think that answers my question as far as what's legal and possible.
So, the building regs compliant studio of 50sq m should be possible if the garden and house is big enough.
Planning permission might be required for adding extractiion.
Does that sound right?

 

Correct. I built a 70sqm garage without planning.

 

Dont even think about planning for extraction. Dont give the council a sniff of your plans. Wont happen in a domestic setting.

 

For my paining i put a filter on the outlet so there is zero overspray. If you need to eliminate the smell, add a charcol filter to the output. Not cheap, but, trust me, much better than what will happen if you go down the planning route.

 

Tell nobody anything.

 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Roger440

[optimystery]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

 

Correct

 

Dont even think about planning for extraction. Dont give the council a sniff of your plans. Wont happen in a domestic setting.

 

For my paining i put a filter on the outlet so there is zero overspray. If you need to eliminate the smell, add a charcol filter to the output. Not cheap, but, trust me, much better than what will happen if you go down the planning route.

 

Tell nobody anything.

 

Thanks for the advice! 🙏🏼

[Bozza]

1 hour ago, optimystery said:

Yes, I am thinking this may be more realistic. 6x5m sq outbuilding plus a garage or double garage would probably work.
Adding extraction might be tricky, but would only be needed in one of the spaces.

Is your shed 5x3m?

8m long x 3.6m wide x 3.9m high. To squeeze it under the permitted development rules.  Hand built by moi.

[Russell griffiths]

Have you thought about a commercial building with living accommodation