Can't fix, won't fix...what's the alternative

[ProDave]

 

Very hard to photograph but the short part of the L is recessed into the door jamb and screwed there, and the long part on the floor supports and locates the pin, with just a single screw at it's outer edge for stability.

[FuerteStu]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 

Very hard to photograph but the short part of the L is recessed into the door jamb and screwed there, and the long part on the floor supports and locates the pin, with just a single screw at it's outer edge for stability.

So in theory most of the actual fixing could be in the wall, and the floor fixing could be tile depth just for stability? 

(assuming he used the same method) 

[ProDave]

Yes.  I know my doors are not as heavy as yours, but I did not put the outer edge screw into the floor straight away, until I was sure the bracket was in the right place and working correctly, and even without that screw into the floor, the bracket seemed stable.  So the floor fixing is not doing very much at all and could be perhaps a short screw resin fixed into a tile depth hole?

[Thorfun]

45 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Yes it is an L shaped bracket that came with mine.  The upstand of the L is recessed into the door janb and fixed with 3 screws into that.  That leaces it pretty stable.  There is then just a single screw at the end of the bottom part of the L that screws into the floor for good measure.  I will take a photo later.

 

Perhaps your solution might be to make a similar bracket that locates your pin but is fixed to the jamb like mine?

right. got it now. thank you.

[Thorfun]

thanks for the help all. just found out after our BCO Visit that they need to be fire rated as we have a basement the house is classed as having 3-storeys and so all internal doors must be fire rated. 😭

I'm now thinking about buying the fixings and getting our chippie to make a bespoke bifold door set our of glazed fire doors. surely it's just a top hung runner and some pivot hinges? will google it and see what I can find

[ProDave]

Careful with that idea.  Fire doors have to be mounted in fire door liners with intumescent strip in the right places in the door or the frame.  I very much doubt a custom made bifold door set would comply.

 

 

[Thorfun]

bloody hell! glazed fire doors a <expletive deleted> expensive! 😭

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

Careful with that idea.  Fire doors have to be mounted in for door liners with intumescent strip in the right places in the door or the frame.  I very much doubt a custom made bifold door set would comply.

 

 

but a normal FD30 internal door doesn't need the intumescent strip does it? only the ones between the house and garage do I thought

Edited November 24, 2023 by Thorfun
typo as it's hard to type through the tears

[Mike]

22 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

a normal FD30 internal door doesn't need the intumescent strip does it?

Yes, it does.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Yes, it does.

But true fire doors need automatic closures. Our BCO only said we need those between garage and house and also only mentioned intumescent strips for the garage to house doors as well. We don’t need those on the other internal rooms, just need FD30 doors. 

[saveasteading]

Groundhog day..  we seem tomhave the same points as on the previous pages.

If the bco requires it, then it is a fire door.

It has to be fire rated.

It has to self close.

 

Is the bco correct? I don't think we can say without seeing the drawings.

 

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Groundhog day..  we seem tomhave the same points as on the previous pages.

If the bco requires it, then it is a fire door.

It has to be fire rated.

It has to self close.

 

Is the bco correct? I don't think we can say without seeing the drawings.

 

So you’re saying that because I have a basement and 2 storeys above ground EVERY door in the house needs to have intumescent strips and auto closures on them as well as being FD30 doors?

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

So you’re saying that because I have a basement and 2 storeys above ground EVERY door in the house needs to have intumescent strips and auto closures on them as well as being FD30 doors?

What did your plans approved by building control before you started specify?

[Thorfun]

8 minutes ago, ProDave said:

What did your plans approved by building control before you started specify?

I don’t recall seeing anything on the drawings but there was a document with them that the architects created. I’ll have a look tomorrow and get back to you

[Thorfun]

16 minutes ago, ProDave said:

What did your plans approved by building control before you started specify?

Found it quicker than I thought. 

19.00 Internal Doors
Supply and install new doors, frames and linings in positions as indicated on Architect’s drawings, to Employer/Architect’s approval. All new ironmongery to Employer’s approval

 

[Thorfun]

I was thinking about these 'fire door' discussions last night and I wonder if the confusion is coming from the terminology being used. in my mind a 'fire door' is an FD30/FD60 rated door with intumescent strips and auto-closers and a 'fire rated' door is a door that is FD30/FD60 rated.

 

so, I believe that our internal doors need to be 'fire rated' and the doors between the garage and the house need to be 'fire doors'. at least that's my understanding. so our internal doors don't need the intumescent strips or auto-closures but do need to be FD30 doors.

 

but I will double check with the BCO on Monday now that I have his number!

[saveasteading]

10 hours ago, Thorfun said:

new doors, frames and linings in positions as indicated on Architect’s drawings, to Employer/Architect’s approval

That is meaningless though. / bco too.

This is a technical matter but for your family's safety.

It needs a proper read through the regs with the design to hand.  It's the Architect's job if retained.

It isn't the bco's job to design your house so be patient with them.

[ProDave]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

That is meaningless though. / bco too.

This is a technical matter but for your family's safety.

It needs a proper read through the regs with the design to hand.  It's the Architect's job if retained.

It isn't the bco's job to design your house so be patient with them.

The Scottish system is better, you would not get your building warrant until all such details are properly detailed and agreed and confirmed by BCO to meet building regulations.  Then as long as you build to the drawings you should not have issues.

[Kelvin]

I asked earlier. What are the Scottish regs on this? 

[Mike]

23 hours ago, Thorfun said:

But true fire doors need automatic closures. Our BCO only said we need those between garage and house and also only mentioned intumescent strips for the garage to house doors as well. We don’t need those on the other internal rooms, just need FD30 doors.

All fire doors in all buildings used to require automatic closers. That requirement was relaxed for private dwellings (except between the house and an integral garage, as your BCO requires), but in all other respects a fire door is a fire door.

 

The change followed a report in 2003 identifying that closers were causing over 30,000 finger-trap injuries each year, and that many people disabled the closers or wedged the doors open.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Mike

[ETC]

21 hours ago, Thorfun said:

Found it quicker than I thought. 

19.00 Internal Doors
Supply and install new doors, frames and linings in positions as indicated on Architect’s drawings, to Employer/Architect’s approval. All new ironmongery to Employer’s approval

 

What a load of shit!

[ETC]

On 24/11/2023 at 16:07, Thorfun said:

thanks for the help all. just found out after our BCO Visit that they need to be fire rated as we have a basement the house is classed as having 3-storeys and so all internal doors must be fire rated. 😭

I'm now thinking about buying the fixings and getting our chippie to make a bespoke bifold door set our of glazed fire doors. surely it's just a top hung runner and some pivot hinges? will google it and see what I can find

 

[Thorfun]

12 minutes ago, ETC said:

 

This is the MOST helpful post! Thank you. Please can you link the BR document it’s from so I can go back to the BCO armed with this information. 
 

I especially want to read Appendix A which defines a basement. 

Edited November 25, 2023 by Thorfun
Added bit about appendix A

[ETC]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1124733/Approved_Document_B__fire_safety__volume_1_-_Dwellings__2019_edition_incorporating_2020_and_2022_amendments.pdf

[Thorfun]

thank you @ETC for the pointers to the building regs. I have read through what I believe to be the pertinent sections and cannot see why I would need fire rated doors between the hallway and kitchen. 

 

the regs clearly state that basements don't count as a storey when classifying a dwelling house so I see no need for internal doors to be fire rated. but I do need to comply with fire doors between the garage and the house. no problems there.

 

The stairs leading from the basement to the hallway land at the hallway/kitchen threshold so this might be where the confusion lies as the stairway should be a protected stairway to comply. But in the section for Basements it says this:

 

 

so ONE of those. I have an emergency external door providing escape from the basement which has a staircase up to ground level.

 

 

Therefore I believe that the emergency external door makes our basement comply with the Building Regs if I'm reading the above correctly. therefore my stairway from basement to ground floor that lands by the kitchen doesn't need to be protected.

 

I'll compose an email to the BCO tonight and then give him a call tomorrow/Tuesday to discuss.

 

does anyone disagree with my findings?