Can't fix, won't fix...what's the alternative

[Thorfun]

greetings. we are looking to install some folding internal French doors in a 2.7m gap between the hallway and kitchen (requirement for building regulations). I have found these https://www.jewson.co.uk/p/jci-fsc-internal-unfinished-fold-flat-door-set-2-7m-JCIL0048 which fit the opening but while reading the installation instructions have seen an issue that we would need to get over if we were to buy them. at the junction of door jambs and floor there are 2 x pivots that need to be mechanically fixed to the floor.

 

 

that's fine at one end but at the other end our UFH pipes run under the 50mm screed and so I can't mechanically fix there. the finished tiles are in place so what would my options be to fix that pivot to the tiles while still giving enough security to hold in place to take the weight of the doors? there must be some kind of adhesive that would do the job?

 

 

[Alan Ambrose]

I wonder if you can see exactly where your pipes are with a FLIR or similar? But a good glue should work - given that you won't be following the manufacturer's instructions you will probably lose your guarantee or at least parts of it.

 

There are a bunch of professional glues out there not found in the consumer aisles of your local big shed. Having said that, I would read the Araldite instructions carefully and see whether that would suffice. Looks like a reasonable opportunity for a good bond between hard tile and largish flat metal area.

 

Probably clean both tiles and metal parts with IPA or something, maybe roughen with an abrasive  - whatever the instructions say.

[joe90]

As the weight of the doors is on this plate it seems to me the “pin” and “screw” hold the plate still (no sliding on the floor), can you not cut the pin short (depth of the tile) and the screw to act as location pins along with suitable glue. At what depth is your UFH pipes? Alternatively recess the plate within the tile to stop sliding 🤷‍♂️

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said:

I wonder if you can see exactly where your pipes are with a FLIR or similar? But a good glue should work - given that you won't be following the manufacturer's instructions you will probably lose your guarantee or at least parts of it.

 

There are a bunch of professional glues out there not found in the consumer aisles of your local big shed. Having said that, I would read the Araldite instructions carefully and see whether that would suffice. Looks like a reasonable opportunity for a good bond between hard tile and largish flat metal area.

 

Probably clean both tiles and metal parts with IPA or something, maybe roughen with an abrasive  - whatever the instructions say.

 

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

As the weight of the doors is on this plate it seems to me the “pin” and “screw” hold the plate still (no sliding on the floor), can you not cut the pin short (depth of the tile) and the screw to act as location pins along with suitable glue. At what depth is your UFH pipes? Alternatively recess the plate within the tile to stop sliding 🤷‍♂️

 

yep. I have an IR camera so I can see where the pipes are but I don't know exactly how much cover they have! it should be 25mm plus about 15mm for the tiles etc so it 'should' be safe to fix down 40mm but I'm very reluctant to take that risk! the last thing I want is to go too far and pierce my ufh pipes as that's a world of pain that I want to stay a million miles away from.

 

I could indeed potentially just drill through the tile and use that pin and a glue to belt and braces it. I'm also thinking a really strong adhesive rather than something 'normal' from my BM.

 

I'm also wondering if the fact that the doors will most likely be permanently open so won't be opening and closing much so how much movement on the bottom pivot will there actually be?

[crispy_wafer]

If it's not a daft question...  What's the purpose of those doors?  I'm thinking along the lines of fitting something to satisfy regs and the BI and then remove and make good later on, however if they are for firespread or something then nah!  They are nice looking doors though!

[Thorfun]

3 minutes ago, crispy_wafer said:

If it's not a daft question...  What's the purpose of those doors?  I'm thinking along the lines of fitting something to satisfy regs and the BI and then remove and make good later on, however if they are for firespread or something then nah!  They are nice looking doors though!

there's no such thing as a daft question!

 

we need doors for building regulations. we did toy with the idea of putting something up to satisfy BR and then taking them down again but also realised that the kitchen/diner leads on to a large open vaulted hallway which the bedrooms are off. so if someone is having a dinner party or other social gathering then anyone in the bedrooms may be disturbed so figured if we can get glazed doors we can close off if required to assist with reducing the noise levels.

 

IF we'd made the decision earlier I could easily have not run the ufh pipes so close to the jamb and this problem would've gone away. but that's just another example of a small decision having a bigger impact later on down the line because I don't really know what I'm doing! such is the life of a self-builder.

[crispy_wafer]

10 gallon hat and spurs time.

 

how's about cut a piece of ply to the same shape as the metal footplate and glue with some super dooper polywhatsit adhesive to the screed.  Cut tile so that it fits perfectly around the bit of ply.  Make sure the ply is the same depth as tile and tile adhesive.  The metal footplate will cover the ply. 

[Thorfun]

the other option we have is to go for a bifold system like this https://deantawood.co.uk/product/folding-system/. the problem here is that our opening is not high enough so I would need to cut away plaster/plasterboard and then cut down the TF above the opening to accommodate the extra height. which is also a real pain! and which if I'd done the research earlier on this subject could've done before plastering.

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, crispy_wafer said:

10 gallon hat and spurs time.

 

how's about cut a piece of ply to the same shape as the metal footplate and glue with some super dooper polywhatsit adhesive to the screed.  Cut tile so that it fits perfectly around the bit of ply.  Make sure the ply is the same depth as tile and tile adhesive.  The metal footplate will cover the ply. 

that could've worked but the tiles are already down and I won't be able to cut the shape out.

[Thorfun]

I've just had a quick chat with my chippie and he has suggested a possible solution would be to drill 5mm into the screed and use a resin to bond the screws in as well as putting resin under the plate. he also mentioned cutting out a bit of the tile (doesn't have to be the whole size of the pivot plate) so that the resin has a 'base' so to speak. my analogy would be an iceberg. so that the thin layer of resin under the pivot plate would actually go further down forming a solid block to resist the lateral movement of the doors when opening.

 

as such I'm confident that we can make this work. 🙂 

[crispy_wafer]

👏

[Kelvin]

Wouldn’t a thicker layer of whatever you use move more than a thinner layer? 

[saveasteading]

If these doors are the moulded mdf  bifolds intended for wardrobes, then  i doubt they will satisfy building regs, but might be OK with a pin into the glued down plate supplied.

If they are ' proper' doors then they will need very secure fixings.

 

What are they for that bco wants them?

[Thorfun]

19 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

If these doors are the moulded mdf  bifolds intended for wardrobes, then  i doubt they will satisfy building regs, but might be OK with a pin into the glued down plate supplied.

If they are ' proper' doors then they will need very secure fixings.

 

What are they for that bco wants them?

Fire regulations iirc.

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

Wouldn’t a thicker layer of whatever you use move more than a thinner layer? 

I believe the idea is that with the resin bonded to the pivot plate AND anchored through the tile to the screed below the whole thing acts like an anchor to resist the lateral movement.

[Thorfun]

21 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

If these doors are the moulded mdf  bifolds intended for wardrobes, then  i doubt they will satisfy building regs, but might be OK with a pin into the glued down plate supplied.

If they are ' proper' doors then they will need very secure fixings.

 

What are they for that bco wants them?

at 40mm thick and 104kg I'd say they're not lightweight!

 

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

they're not lightweight!

Noted.

Also I see the warning about very secure fixing, so I would go with the plywood idea, or even a steel plate. It will otherwise crack the tiles.

Fire doors?

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

Noted.

Also I see the warning about very secure fixing, so I would go with the plywood idea, or even a steel plate. It will otherwise crack the tiles.

Fire doors?

we want glazed doors to allow the light in to the kitchen area. also want to allow the space to be opened up.

[saveasteading]

But why does the bco require them?

I've looked them up now and don't see any fire rating.

[Thorfun]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

But why does the bco require them?

I've looked them up now and don't see any fire rating.

ahh...right. I don't believe they need to be fire doors as such but we need to be able to separate the kitchen from the hallway. something about protected exits or some such? I forget the actual building regulation it's meant to satisfy. our BR plans just show doors there.

 

[saveasteading]

7 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

something about protected exits or some such? 

I can't see the logic of it for that, as it would need to be kept closed.

Best check, as that is an expensive door.

[Thorfun]

Just now, saveasteading said:

I can't see the logic of it for that, as it would need to be kept closed.

Best check, as that is an expensive door.

easier said than done as my BCO is s**t and I don't get a response. I will try again though.

[ETC]

The rational for the doors is straight forward - they are there so that the bedrooms upstairs are not accessed through the kitchen. If the doors were not there the whole hallway, the staircase and the kitchen would be considered as a single space.

 

Alternatively look at sliding doors or a Automist system. BC may allow you to install an Automist system in lieu of separating the kitchen from the staircase.

 

I presume you have EEWs in all bedrooms on the first floor? and that this is only a two storey dwelling? Anything else and the requirements for means of escape get more onerous.

 

Automist Smartscan fire sprinkler: water mist fire suppression

[ETC]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

But why does the bco require them?

I've looked them up now and don't see any fire rating.

Fire rating not required in a two storey house.

[ProDave]

I am about to fit a (smaller but still quite heavy) bifold door to my pantry.  Quite a lot of people that reviewed the door I have bought have ditched the top and bottom pin arrangement as being lousy and not well built, in favour of just hanging the end door on normal hinges mounted into the door frame as any other door hinge.

 

Is that an option for you to consider?