SteamyTea Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 8 minutes ago, jack said: Until then, people will do what they've always done. Isn't that a good enough reason for this forum to help educate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daiking Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 22 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: Isn't that a good enough reason for this forum to help educate? Are you going to tie people down and educate them, clockwork orange fashion? There needs to be a willingness to learn which does not appear to be there for basic application let alone enhanced application. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oz07 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 The thermal box doesn't worry me it's all the balancing and figuring out of systems. @JSHarris makes it sound easy but I wouldn't have a clue where to start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 3 hours ago, jack said: Someone above mentioned £2000 for certification. That was me and was based on the price of £1700 I was quoted by Peter Warm seven years ago for certification. The quote was based on the fact all components were PHI certificated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: No it isn't. I think this is part of the problem. People get put off 'science' at school because it is so badly taught. Most is really easy. That is absolutely spot on. People go into science because they are curious and interested in stuff, and, perhaps more importantly, they aren't too focussed on earning loads of money (a look at the adverts for scientists in the back of your weekly "comic" soon shows what the pay is like!). Teaching science is challenging, but no more so than teaching maths, I think. I remember hating maths, and not being able to understand what on earth integration (and differentiation) was about, until I was fiddling around with a project at home and needed to find the area under a curve. All of a sudden the concept of integration became clear. One bad side effect was that I went back to school and spoke to the maths master about it, saying how I'd suddenly grasped what calculus was about by looking at something practical. Sadly, he was from a pure maths background and dismissed my suggestion of having some practical examples to illustrate maths and put me at the back of the class for having the temerity to suggest something.......... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 On 9/7/2017 at 05:29, graeme m said: As we are getting to that point in the build. Should I be Certified (if you know what I mean). Getting back to the original poster's question for a moment, what point in the build are you at @graeme m? Unless you're still at the planning stages, it's likely to be difficult, if it's possible at all, to certify your house as meeting the PH standard. 16 minutes ago, PeterStarck said: That was me and was based on the price of £1700 I was quoted by Peter Warm seven years ago for certification. The quote was based on the fact all components were PHI certificated. Was that for the second part of the certification process (ie, confirming that the PHPP as completed by the PH consultant meets all the requirements, and submitting to the PH Institute), or for everything? I can only assume it's the former, based on some of the quotes we were getting for the different stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 44 minutes ago, Oz07 said: The thermal box doesn't worry me it's all the balancing and figuring out of systems. @JSHarris makes it sound easy but I wouldn't have a clue where to start! I can understand that bit, the systems can be a bit challenging, but around 90% of getting a house to PH levels of performance is basic stuff, insulation and airtightness primarily. As for understanding stuff, I'm constantly amazed by the technical knowledge that people like bricklayers have. In their heads they are constantly solving geometric problems in 3D, and using hard-won skills and experience to keep walls true and plumb, whilst thinking ahead several courses to make sure what they are doing now is going to make what they need to do later easier. I'd argue that that skill is every bit as technically demanding, perhaps more so, than the knowledge needed to work out the heat losses from a house, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Isn't that a good enough reason for this forum to help educate? Who said anything about not educating? Like everyone on here, I try to help out as best I can. Many of my friends and family come to me to ask about building since they know how hands-on we were (at least in a project management sense). The problem, as Daiking says, is that if people can't be arsed to understand (or in the case of many builders, meet) the basic requirements, how are they going to have a hope of understanding non-standard or unusual approaches? I do agree that the quality of teaching is generally pretty poor. I don't think that's the fault of teachers. It's the fault of a society that increasingly doesn't value knowledge, curiosity or creativity. Coupled with low rates of pay and appalling conditions for a lot of teachers, you end up with a largely disengaged group of people trying to teach another disengaged group of people. I'm trying really hard to engender a sense of curiosity and a love of learning for learning's sake in my kids, but it's bloody difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone West Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 9 minutes ago, jack said: Was that for the second part of the certification process (ie, confirming that the PHPP as completed by the PH consultant meets all the requirements, and submitting to the PH Institute), or for everything? I can only assume it's the former, based on some of the quotes we were getting for the different stages. I've dug out the paperwork from March 2010 and my memory of the cost was wrong. The fee was £1874.80 + VAT. This was for Pre Construction Assessment and Final Assessment and did not include drawings, Psi calculations or certificates for airtightness etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitpipe Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 29 minutes ago, jack said: I'm trying really hard to engender a sense of curiosity and a love of learning for learning's sake in my kids, but it's bloody difficult. I feel your pain, currently running around the house taking MVHR measurements with the anemometer that I borrowed from the forum and a big card cone to focus the airflow. Son (12), who is naturally good at maths but generally disinterested in anything technical other than his XBox or phone, asked what I was doing. I explained that the device measures air flow in m/s and we can convert that into m3/h by knowing the cross sectional area of the measuring probe - all stuff he's doing in y8 maths. You could see the eyes glaze over rapidly, he thought I was going to test a smoke alarm by setting fire to the card... + 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 45 minutes ago, PeterStarck said: I've dug out the paperwork from March 2010 and my memory of the cost was wrong. The fee was £1874.80 + VAT. This was for Pre Construction Assessment and Final Assessment and did not include drawings, Psi calculations or certificates for airtightness etc. I'll see if I can find the quotes we got. Pretty sure the whole deal was more than double that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexphd1 Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) For me personally, I fail to see the the attraction of passive certification. My priority is to build a home which is cheap to run and very healthy/comfortable to live in, I don't think this is rocket science and I do not need a badge to tell everybody this! Further more i don't agree with only being able to buy passive certified products to gain certification and pay a large premium for this ( i feel as self builder i am already being ripped off everywhere else!) sorry for the rant, its being a shit day on site Edited September 8, 2017 by Alexphd1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 9 hours ago, jack said: Was that this one @craig? Yes, very nice house and family to boot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, JSHarris said: Yes it is, it's a doddle. I've run our as-built house configuration through PHPP, and despite being an all-electric house it still comes in within the PHI standard. Respectfully I disagree with you and just because you have ran the house through the software, it doesn't mean it is a PH or better. All the PHPP is telling you, is from the data you have entered is that it either passes or fails. Where's the proof to show the as built details, thermal bridging evidence supplied and so forth. I don't doubt for a second that it will be built well and may pass an actual certification process. How do you know? Because the PHPP says it is? Edited September 8, 2017 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 The guy who built it gave a talk at Ecobuild a few years ago (possibly the same one where I met Thomas Froehlich). I was really surprised to hear that he was able to get PH certification after the fact. I think he was somewhat lucky, both that he'd documented everything so well, and that it was built in such a way that it met the formal requirements. I absolutely love the arch, especially from the inside, but was originally less sure about its interaction with the box. It's definitely grown on me since. 4 hours ago, Alexphd1 said: For me personally, I fail to see the the attraction of passive certification. My priority is to build a home which is cheap to run and very healthy/comfortable to live in, I don't think this is rocket science and I do not need a badge to tell everybody this! I do think certification has a value, which is that an independent person has reviewed both what was designed and what was built, and concluded that both elements meet all the requirements of the PH standard. That may be of less value for those of us who are project managing or even building it ourselves, because we have a better chance of catching shortcuts by others (or ourselves!) For someone using a main contractor, I believe there's definitely value in this independent oversight. 4 hours ago, Alexphd1 said: Further more i don't agree with only being able to buy passive certified products to gain certification and pay a large premium for this ( i feel as self builder i am already being ripped off everywhere else!) It's not that you must buy them, it's just that for certain elements it may be easier to meet the standard if you do, especially if other restrictions (eg, orientation, shading) make meeting the standard more onerous. I do think it's ridiculous that an MVHR's SAP rating has to be knocked down by 15% - it isn't as though it just a manufacturer's number plucked out of the air (assuming I'm right that SAP ratings involve independent testing - please correct me if I'm wrong). 4 hours ago, Alexphd1 said: sorry for the rant, its being a shit day on site Never apologise for having a crappy day. Being able to let off some steam is just one of the great things about Buildhub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Alexphd1 said: Further more i don't agree with only being able to buy passive certified products to gain certification and pay a large premium for this ( i feel as self builder i am already being ripped off everywhere else!) sorry for the rant, its being a shit day on site Whoever told you that is talking nonsense, you can use any product you want that meets the requirements and has 3rd party certification. If you can't prove the values, you will be penalised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 minute ago, jack said: The guy who built it gave a talk at Ecobuild Richard Hawkes, we were responsible for the certification ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Just now, craig said: Richard Hawkes, we were responsible for the certification ? That's him. He's an architect, as I recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) 34 minutes ago, jack said: That's him. He's an architect, as I recall. Yes, specialises in para 55 builds. Edited September 8, 2017 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Interesting. Looking at his website, he's done some very interesting stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) He has a couple of cracking builds in the pipeline and done a few crackers in the past. Edited September 8, 2017 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, craig said: Respectfully I disagree with you and just because you have ran the house through the software, it doesn't mean it is a PH or better. All the PHPP is telling you, is from the data you have entered is that it either passes or fails. Where's the proof to show the as built details, thermal bridging evidence supplied and so forth. I don't doubt for a second that it will be built well and may pass an actual certification process. How do you know? Because the PHPP says it is? Dead easy. It is well-instrumented and demonstrably uses less primary energy than the PH criterion. QED I agree that some consultants make a living out of making it all seem impossibly difficult, and so complicated that only someone who charges a small fortune for their services can possibly ensure that a house meets the PH standard, but not only is that BS, it's also contrary to the general principles that were expounded by Bo Adamson and Wolfgang Feist when they came up with the idea. Edited September 8, 2017 by JSHarris typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, craig said: Whoever told you that is talking nonsense, you can use any product you want that meets the requirements and has 3rd party certification. If you can't prove the values, you will be penalised. This I don't understand. Are you penalised against the (worthless) PH standard or actually penalised against real energy usage (which I doubt). Could you clarify please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) If the product you are using claims a certain value to you and you decide to use that but the supplier / manufacturer cannot back up that claim with 3rd party certificates, proving the claimed values. You'll be penalised on those particular products (i.e windows). Edited September 8, 2017 by craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 As in they default to an artificially low (or high energy use) value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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