Do £1500 to £2000 /m2 estimates include everything finished?

[flanagaj]

I am looking at extending a property by an additional 120m2.   My aim is to use individual trades to carry out the build and we only want the contractors to provide me with a first fix shell.  I can then go in and second fix, hang doors, skirting, tile floors, plumb bathrooms and manufacture the kitchen (use to be a cabinet maker), but I am confused at to what the figure of £1500 to £2000 m2 actually means and whether given what my intentions are, whether I would still expect to pay this amount, or whether the figure would be reduced.    

The main aim is to ensure that we have enough budget (currently 160k) to enable us to get everything done, move in and then use proceeds each month from wages to finish out the property.    I have renovated a property before, and I am conscious that for less than 1k you can easily fit out an ensuite bathroom and make it look really tidy.   Blowing mega dollar is a false economy, as the most important point is how well the job is done. 

 

 

Thanks

[nod]

That sounds fine to me With 1500-2000 you should be able to get contractors in for the shell and Groundwork’s If you intend to do most of the fit out yourself 

I’ve 350k with 50k contingency to build 410m2 

Labour is the key and shopping around for good quality materials 

Which is a lot easier than six months ago 

[flanagaj]

9 minutes ago, nod said:

That sounds fine to me With 1500-2000 you should be able to get contractors in for the shell and Groundwork’s If you intend to do most of the fit out yourself 

I’ve 350k with 50k contingency to build 410m2 

Labour is the key and shopping around for good quality materials 

Which is a lot easier than six months ago 

 Is 350k your total spend for the 410m2, eg including all second fix?

[nod]

7 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

 Is 350k your total spend for the 410m2, eg including all second fix?

and fees 

50 k contingency 

Its what we have after buying the land and plots 

[Dave Jones]

that change in roof pitch for the conservatory wouldn't pass my OCD test, would have had to warm parapet roofed it!

 

Oh and cut your grass!

[flanagaj]

Thanks for the reply, but you didn't answer my question.   Is the 350k simply for the shell, or is the house complete internally and you are able to move in?

[nod]

38 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

Thanks for the reply, but you didn't answer my question.   Is the 350k simply for the shell, or is the house complete internally and you are able to move in?

No

its everything 

 

[nod]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

that change in roof pitch for the conservatory wouldn't pass my OCD test, would have had to warm parapet roofed it!

 

Oh and cut your grass!

Yeah 30 degrees Bit of a compromise 

but it is the back of the house You have to walk across our field to really notice it 

[nod]

43 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

Thanks for the reply, but you didn't answer my question.   Is the 350k simply for the shell, or is the house complete internally and you are able to move in?

We were around 200 for watertight 

but that includes the 10 mtr x 8.5 mtre two story workshop 

[JohnMo]

13 hours ago, flanagaj said:

confused at to what the figure of £1500 to £2000 m2 actually means

Without knowing the design, the £1500 to 2000 per m2 is meaningless really. The figure is pretty worthless anyway as everyone includes different things for different people.

[nod]

2 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Without knowing the design, the £1500 to 2000 per m2 is meaningless really. The figure is pretty worthless anyway as everyone includes different things for different people.

Rule of thumb is we don’t include the land purchase on here Everything else goes in 

In Flans case No land purchase and probably little in fees

[flanagaj]

15 minutes ago, nod said:

No

its everything 

 

 Thanks for clarifying.

[Andehh]

Nod, with all due respect, I think you need to provide more clarity on your context. I believe you did a HUGE amount of the work yourself and are in the trade, so made considerable savings vs the rest of us who rely on trades for the work and approach it from an outsider point of view. 

 

OP, depending on a huge amount of variables in current market £2000 psqm for a 1st fix shell may still be ambitious! Esp as you need VAT, knock throughs, and what you might find as you start extending etc. 

 

Precovid I'd have been very sure you'd be fine, but the last few years have really made a mess of the construction market with demand, material prices and a smaller labour pool to play with. 

[nod]

26 minutes ago, flanagaj said:

 Thanks for clarifying.

👍

[nod]

2 hours ago, Andehh said:

Nod, with all due respect, I think you need to provide more clarity on your context. I believe you did a HUGE amount of the work yourself and are in the trade, so made considerable savings vs the rest of us who rely on trades for the work and approach it from an outsider point of view. 

 

OP, depending on a huge amount of variables in current market £2000 psqm for a 1st fix shell may still be ambitious! Esp as you need VAT, knock throughs, and what you might find as you start extending etc. 

 

Precovid I'd have been very sure you'd be fine, but the last few years have really made a mess of the construction market with demand, material prices and a smaller labour pool to play with. 

Yes a huge amount done by myself and my wife 

Most trades are to expensive for us I have two lads that do site loading for me But as on the previous build I’ve done it myself I had a lift for a few days with birds mouthing the roof trusses and my lad gave me a lift with the render and slating £200 per day paid out for a handful of days 

I brought a gang of Brickies in and paid the going rate But also did quite a bit myself 

The little digger pictured I’ve borrowed from a friend A farmer friend collected it and did a lot of loading for me As I let him have use of the two acre field 

I’m wiring today and my mate will come and do a day each weekend £250  Same with the plumbing 

The lead guy wanted nearly 3k I’ve done that myself No experience 

Same with Slates 

The list goes on 

Ive 5 tilers that work for me But as previously will lay the 250 m2 myself 

 

While I can get insulation and pb a bit cheaper than most I’m in the same boat as everyone else 

The will be worth considerably more than what we’ve spent 

But would be lucky to brake even on a turnkey 

[flanagaj]

2000/m2 to just get the shell done seems astronomical.  That basically means that self-build is pointless, unless you are fortunate to have either been gifted the land or got lucky with planning permission.

I am hoping that due to inflation and high mortgage interest rates, the building sector will quiet down and trades will naturally become cheaper again.   It was only a few years ago that a full self-build (fully completed) was £1000 - £1750 m/2 and the upper figure was a high end finish.

[Dave Jones]

£2000m2 is cheap, realistically you need to be doubling it.

 

£1000m2 was maybe 10 years ago and even then council house spec.

 

No way trades  will become cheaper as they have mortgages to pay as well. 

 

New regs are a lot more expensive, materials have all gone up etc etc.

 

Value is won or lost on the plot purchase and plans that can be built reasonably cheaply.

[Kelvin]

It’s not cheap to get to a weathertight shell which is what he asked. It’s cheap for a full finish. To get to weathertight including groundworks, cladding, standing seam roof, flat roof, fully insulated, 3G windows and 3G rooflights, first fix plumbing and electrical, and 10m x 6.5m garage we are at £1025/m² . 
 

But I agree in that it won’t get any cheaper as labour costs are still rising. Material costs might come down a bit if there’s a downturn. Hence we decided to crack on with it as waiting would have made it unaffordable. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Kelvin

[flanagaj]

3 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

£2000m2 is cheap, realistically you need to be doubling it.

 

3 hours ago, Kelvin said:

To get to weathertight including groundworks, cladding, standing seam roof, flat roof, fully insulated, 3G windows and 3G rooflights, first fix plumbing and electrical, and 10m x 6.5m garage we are at £1025/m² . 

 

So basically, it's rather subjective?

[Mr Punter]

The project I am working on at the moment which is about 175m2 has fees and service connections working out at £228/m2, so £40k with nothing much to show for it!

 

The watertight shell was about an additional £850/m2, so £1078/m2 total but with me project managing.  It will be the same again to finish it.

[BadgerBadger]

1 hour ago, flanagaj said:

 

 

So basically, it's rather subjective?

 

Herein lies the problems with m2 rates - what's achievable for one set assumptions is completely unrealistic for another.

 

Use them as a rough guide, but getting applicable costings for your exact situation is the only way you're going to know if your project is viable.

[AliG]

On 27/08/2023 at 09:45, Andehh said:

Esp as you need VAT

Most of the time when we are talking self builds there is no VAT.

 

For an extension, therefore £2000/sq metre is equivalent to £1666 when thinking of a self build.

 

Looking at work I have had done recently - tiling, floor laying, plumbing and so on, labour is generally around 50-60% of the cost of having something done (considerably more on plumbing and electrics). So people doing work themselves are massively distorting the cost relative to people paying someone else to do the work.

 

In saying all this I think for first fix level you should be able to get stuff done for between £1000 and £1500 including VAT. Is it one or two storeys? That will make quite a big difference, could be 20% more for single storey. The big things affecting the cost will be -

 

1. Exterior finish - rendering and wooden cladding are expensive.

2. Insulation spec - insulation is expensive

3. Window quantity and spec - 3g windows are a lot more expensive than walls.

4 Amount of plumbing and electrics - depending now whether the extension has lots of bathrooms kitchen etc will make a big difference to these costs.

[Dave Jones]

5 hours ago, AliG said:

Most of the time when we are talking self builds there is no VAT.

 

For an extension, therefore £2000/sq metre is equivalent to £1666 when thinking of a self build.

 

 

nope. that figure is ex vat ie the real cost. 

[AliG]

Not sure what you mean @Dave Jones?

 

As self builds are zero rated I was saying an extension should cost 20% more straight away due to VAT. Numbers quoted on the forum are generally zero rated numbers.

[Dave Jones]

2 hours ago, AliG said:

Not sure what you mean @Dave Jones?

 

As self builds are zero rated I was saying an extension should cost 20% more straight away due to VAT. Numbers quoted on the forum are generally zero rated numbers.

 

ah right, sorry misunderstood.