Solar - Where to start?

[S2D2]

This might be worth a look for sizing battery: 

 

I'll do an update against actuals at some point, went MCS in the end and filled the roof on the scaffolded elevation as that seemed the most cost effective approach. Battery sizing has a much harsher drop off though so be wary of chasing that last 10% of usage as things start getting silly.

 

With export payments where they are and heat pumps getting more affordable, I'm glad I didn't bother with a hot water divert as I would have turned it off by now and used cheap rate electric. This can change at the whim of the market though.

[DazRave]

7 hours ago, S2D2 said:

This might be worth a look for sizing battery: 

That was a great read, thanks for posting and sharing.

Your findings have given me food for thought and I've also added some notes to my ever growing project file.

One thing I hadn't heard of before is using a pre-heater BEFORE a combi boiler. I'm going to have to deep dive into that a bit more for sure.

[JohnMo]

26 minutes ago, DazRave said:

One thing I hadn't heard of before is using a pre-heater BEFORE a combi boiler. I'm going to have to deep dive into that a bit more for sure.

 

From experience combi pre heat is great. You can get huge flow rates if done correctly. Ideally you have a diverter valve, to bypass the combi if water is hot enough to go direct to the tap, plus you need by pass flow and combi flow to go through a mixing valve to stop excess heat going to the taps.

 

Alpha boilers use them as a factory option, I have an Atag boiler that works well with and is designed to take preheat water - not all boilers will, so don't assume it will be ok.

[DazRave]

13 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

 

From experience combi pre heat is great. You can get huge flow rates if done correctly. Ideally you have a diverter valve, to bypass the combi if water is hot enough to go direct to the tap, plus you need by pass flow and combi flow to go through a mixing valve to stop excess heat going to the taps.

 

Alpha boilers use them as a factory option, I have an Atag boiler that works well with and is designed to take preheat water - not all boilers will, so don't assume it will be ok.

Thanks for the heads up. 

Am I right in thinking a faster water flow will also help with running more than 1 hot tap and/or shower etc at the same time? We have always had this problem but our Boiler is pretty beefy and my gas engineer said it's mainly down to the thin water feed into the property and the fact we're on a hill.

EDIT: A quick google search of my Intergas ECO RF 36 combi boiler and it looks like I can pre-heat on them. I'm just not sure if my specific model is accepted yet.

Edited October 11, 2023 by DazRave
Added boiler

[JohnMo]

Basics of my system are a borehole pump feeding an accumulator. So I do get good flow. Pipe from boiler is 15mm to a manifold. Water then goes to each wet room.  Could with a bit of fine tuning run 3 showers just. You can flush the loo while in the shower with no affect in the shower.

 

One thing you need to do - remove the flow restrictor at the cold water inlet to the boiler. This restricts flow when it's winter and by default in the summer.

 

Intergas was on my list originally, most Dutch combi boilers seem ok for pre heat.

 

Couple of things to read attached the photo is the preheat cylinder sold by Alpha boilers (25 and 50L). You can add an immersion to the 50L.Canetis-SuperFlow-Product-Sheet-WE-050318.pdfCombi-SuperFlow-White-Paper-v1-2-4.pdf

[S2D2]

5 hours ago, DazRave said:

That was a great read, thanks for posting and sharing.

Your findings have given me food for thought and I've also added some notes to my ever growing project file.

One thing I hadn't heard of before is using a pre-heater BEFORE a combi boiler. I'm going to have to deep dive into that a bit more for sure.

No problem, I should add that Octopus doubled their export rate after I did those calcs so it turned all the sums on their head and pointed towards an MCS install. They then increased them by another 50% with Flux after the system was installed and it's performing very well as a result. Ended up installing 5.2kWp panels and a 2.8kWh battery which may need increasing now I've started down the heat pump route.

[DazRave]

18 hours ago, S2D2 said:

No problem, I should add that Octopus doubled their export rate after I did those calcs so it turned all the sums on their head and pointed towards an MCS install. They then increased them by another 50% with Flux after the system was installed and it's performing very well as a result. Ended up installing 5.2kWp panels and a 2.8kWh battery which may need increasing now I've started down the heat pump route.

If it wasn't for the Octopus changes, I wouldn't have considered MCS whatsoever.

It's funny, because of Octopus again, I'm now back to looking at the DIY route! Just crossing my fingers that I might be able to save money now and then shortly sign up to Flux anyway without MCS.
 

[S2D2]

13 hours ago, DazRave said:

If it wasn't for the Octopus changes, I wouldn't have considered MCS whatsoever.

It's funny, because of Octopus again, I'm now back to looking at the DIY route! Just crossing my fingers that I might be able to save money now and then shortly sign up to Flux anyway without MCS.
 

Yes they're doing a lot of good for renewables.

 

For info, I'm just about to switch away from Flux, probably to Cosy as there won't be much meaningful export over the next 5 months and the extra cheap period will mean exclusively off peak usage with the heat pump. The ideal would be intelligent and a larger battery but I haven't done the sums yet. 

[DazRave]

Update

 

So, it looks like I've been accepted through the first stage of the Octopus no-MCS. However...

 

"The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero has informed us that we are not to offer the regulated SEG tariff to anyone who does not have an MCS certified install. We are only able to offer our own export tariffs."

 

I need to do a bit more reading on what this actually means for me, but on the surface of things it means a much much cheaper solar installation and still having the ability to sell at least something back. 

 

There's a load of terms and conditions sent over that I'll filter through this weekend as I want to move fast on this. 

 

In other news

I had a typical follow up phone call from one of the MCS approved installers I had a quote from. I was honest and explained the reason why I hadn't made a decision yet. After explaining to him how I was exploring the DIY/Octopus route, it completely blew his mind. I could hear the cogs winding around in his head trying to comprehend what I'd just said to him and how this would effect his business. 

 

I felt bad at the time, but in hindsight now, if he's an expert in this field surely he should understand quite relevant news regarding it?!

[DazRave]

On 14/10/2023 at 13:39, DazRave said:

"The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero has informed us that we are not to offer the regulated SEG tariff to anyone who does not have an MCS certified install. We are only able to offer our own export tariffs."

 

I need to do a bit more reading on what this actually means for me, but on the surface of things it means a much much cheaper solar installation and still having the ability to sell at least something back. 

Another quick update

I've been through all of the terms and conditions and it looks like I'm allowed to apply for two of Octopus' standard outgoing tariffs, the Fixed and the Agile. So, I mean, this is absolutely fine considering I won't have MCS.

I've also bolted on the Solar panels etc so they can be signed off by building regs surveyor at the same time the rest of the extension is done. This cost me £250 ex vat as an add on. They've requested the details of the solar panels etc that I use, which of course I will have soon. They then can update the notice to the council with the new description of works, or something along those lines!

 

Next Steps

The Octopus application process requires DNO registration. My current planned setup requires me to only inform the DNO after install (rather than before) and so I don't actually have this yet. Bummer, as I can't yet progress further with the application. 

Does anybody know if you can just register with the DNO in advance, even though you don't have to do it in advance, or does it not quite work like that?
 

[DamonHD]

The rules used to be (may still be, but I may be out of date!) that up to 16A per phase you can do the install/connection and notify them within 24h.

[DazRave]

Update

 

Ok, so I've now had two separate MCS installers rehash the exact same sentence to me as soon as I told them that I'm thankful for their time but I'm going to roll the dice with a none-MCS installation.

 

In a nutshell, what they have both claimed is that 'all' insurance companies won't cover you if you don't have an MCS certificate and you also can't sell your house either without one.

 

I have spoken to my insurance and other than it being up to building regs and letting them know the total value of the system they don't care. I also can't find a shred of proof that these claims are true other than on the MCS website itself and from other MCS installers online all of whom seem to copy+paste the same paragraphs.

 

Is there anyone else more knowledgeable than myself here who could throw some light on this solar issue! (Pun intended)

 

 

[jamieled]

Our insurers were not at all bothered - I ticked a box that noted we had solar panels, but they didn't ask about MCS.

 

Haven't sold it, so I can't comment on any problems related to that. But there is no legal requirement to have an MCS install and there are a lot of people without such certification, so it's difficult to believe it could ever stop a house sale.

Edited October 24, 2023 by jamieled

[billt]

The "can't sell your house without one" is certainly a lie.

 

You can sell a house with all sorts of inadequacies. The buyer and seller just negotiate to accommodate the deficiency if it's in any way serious. Of course, building societies and solicitors love to find the slightest excuse to make life difficult!

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> they have both claimed is that 'all' insurance companies won't cover you if you don't have an MCS certificate and you also can't sell your house either without one.

 

Stating the obvious: they see a threat to the future of their business, which presumably been quite profitable over the last few years. Not that many customers won't go MCS just as a precaution. The MCS guys will be practicing and finessing these arguments over the next year or two.

 

It would be interesting to know why Octopus changed their policy. 

[Nic]

Yes, at the moment Octopus is the only energy provider that has removed the need for PV systems to be MCS certified in order to access the SEG. A PV installer without MCS certification (or the means to certify under an umbrella scheme) is limiting themselves to only working with Octopus customers.

 

ME: is this still the case?

[DazRave]

On 27/11/2023 at 14:17, Nic said:

Yes, at the moment Octopus is the only energy provider that has removed the need for PV systems to be MCS certified in order to access the SEG. A PV installer without MCS certification (or the means to certify under an umbrella scheme) is limiting themselves to only working with Octopus customers.

 

ME: is this still the case?

As far as I'm aware, Octopus Energy are the only providers right now with a scheme in place to offer buying back energy from you without the need to have an MCS certificate, yes. 

[Bramco]

On 25/10/2023 at 09:36, billt said:

You can sell a house with all sorts of inadequacies.

 

You can't sell your house without a solicitor - or at least your buyer would be daft not to use a solicitor. So don't underestimate the ingenuity of solicitors in making both your life and theirs difficult.

When we sold our house 18 months ago, the buyers solicitor wanted not only the invoice for the solar (from 15 years previously) but also the quote from the company that did the install....

 

Recently sold a BTL flat and for that one, the buyers solicitor wanted a copy of the s106 agreement with the council from 20 years ago.  

 

Both box ticking exercises which they no doubt added to their list of 'important' details not to be missed from some other solicitor who had thought it up.  I'm sure they all basically add things to their box ticking lists if they've not come across the idea before without asking themselves if what they will be asking has any use to their client.

 

If you've bought a number of properties you have the nous to tell your solicitor to stop being daft and get the contracts signed. If you're selling, your at the mercy of the seller idiots...

 

Simon

 

[billt]

10 minutes ago, Bramco said:

 

You can't sell your house without a solicitor - or at least your buyer would be daft not to use a solicitor. So don't underestimate the ingenuity of solicitors in making both your life and theirs difficult.

When we sold our house 18 months ago, the buyers solicitor wanted not only the invoice for the solar (from 15 years previously) but also the quote from the company that did the install....

 

Recently sold a BTL flat and for that one, the buyers solicitor wanted a copy of the s106 agreement with the council from 20 years ago.  

 

Both box ticking exercises which they no doubt added to their list of 'important' details not to be missed from some other solicitor who had thought it up.  I'm sure they all basically add things to their box ticking lists if they've not come across the idea before without asking themselves if what they will be asking has any use to their client.

 

If you've bought a number of properties you have the nous to tell your solicitor to stop being daft and get the contracts signed. If you're selling, your at the mercy of the seller idiots...

 

Simon

 

 

Oh yes you can. I've sold 3 properties without a solicitor.

 

As they seem to have managed to reintroduce their de facto closed shop and the fees aren't outrageous any more I did use a solicitor for the most recent transactions.

 

The solicitors may want lots of things, but they are the employees of the purchaser and can only offer advice. If the purchaser is sensible enough they will consider the advice and make their own decisions.

 

If you're selling it depends on how desirable the property is and the state of the market (and how desperate you are to sell). If the purchaser wants the property enough and the seller faces down their solicitor agreement can be reached. I've done it.

 

(Yes, I know solicitors conveyancers' (the ones who do the job, very rarely actually done by a solicitor) can be insanely awkward, but ultimately you can refuse to sell and wait for another purchaser.)

[ProDave]

21 minutes ago, Bramco said:

When we sold our house 18 months ago, the buyers solicitor wanted not only the invoice for the solar (from 15 years previously) but also the quote from the company that did the install....

 

Depends on the buyer.  When selling ours, nothing was mentioned about the solar PV even though the buyer knew it was there.

 

Only now, AFTER the sale is compete am I helping the buyer take over the remainder of the feed in tariff contract.

[DazRave]

Update time

 

I've surprised myself and gone down the MCS route! I was sitting on the fence for absolutely ages, had done an absolute load of research but ultimately my time had become too important recently (Both myself and my better half both run businesses). So, after a lot of haggling (to keep within budget) I've gone for a system provided by an installer for a price I can pallet. It's not installed yet (so far, only the on site survey has been completed). For the ease of life I'm losing out on a bit of battery capacity if I were to DIY but other than that I've ticked a lot of the boxes I wanted to tick.

I will, however, be back to update everyone on how much it cost me, what I got and why etc as I'm keen to give back where I can to help others in the future when searching. I'm waiting on the first fix for now!

[DazRave]

Installation Update

 

So as my previous post had mentioned, I ended up going down the MCS approved route. After starting the installation yesterday then getting hit by heavy rain today, the install team are picking back up next week to finish everything off.

 

I've not actually seen the progress with my own eyes yet as I'm living off site, however I've attached a photo sent to me by my Missus who passed in her car after the first day.

 

So what did I end up with?

• 8x Black 420w PV panels (mounted 'in-roof')
• 3.6kW Hybrid invertor
• 8.2kWh battery

Including the paperwork, registering and fitting it cost me just shy of £10k.

 

**Insert Gasp Here**

 

Yeah, I made that noise too. Although we've not finished the installation yet, let me just explain a few reasons why I went down this route and what I'd do if I did it again in the future.

 

In the end I was hit by 2 storms during our build whilst already 2 months behind schedule. To make matters worse the roof installation got pushed along so much that it was split in half by the festive period with absolutely dire weather on top of the storms. My original plan was for my roofer to install the trays and for myself (with my electricians help) to install the panels. My electrician would then crack on with the other parts of the install that are inside the house.

The problem is the timelines were all completely knocked out of sync. I didn't have the time to do my part due to work commitments and my electrician isn't due for another week on site. The roof, while exposed and not even felted yet, was then battered in the storms (A bit of wood nearly speared itself through my neighbours car!). 

So, I was forced to get a company involved which removed the burden from my other tradesmen who were already quite literally under the weather.

 

Would I do it differently? 

 

Absolutely. Yes. I've still got a sour taste in my mouth because I'd have been able to save around £3k from my calculations if I was to do it all myself. I'd have then used that money to install a immersion tank to pre-warm water going through my boiler and reduce my gas bills (something I've planned space in for as a future upgrade).

 

It was a tough pill to swallow going down this route but we're nearly there now I suppose! Hopefully these posts help others in the future much like everyone's replies have helped me. If I remember, I'll be back with an update once the system is all up and running to give any final verdicts!