Trickle Vent Loophole

[DissyStitch]

Hi. I recently had new uPVC windows installed in my whole house (10 Windows). The company told me about a loophole regarding trickle vents. They said that vents are not required if 30% of the windows are replaced at a time. So, they installed all of the windows in one go but will apply to certass 3 times for certification over a period of a few months so as not to raise suspicion and give the illusion that we did not replace more than 30% in one go. I'm now regretting this decision and am worried I'm going to get "found out". Who would liable for this? Would it be on me, or the double glazing company? I completely agreed at the time so I can't claim ignorance!

[JohnMo]

If you have MVHR there is zero requirements for trickle vents, and you still comply with all building regs. Any other ventilation system needs trickle vents. Without cross flow ventilation your house isn't ventilated correctly and likely to susceptible to mould issues.

[DissyStitch]

No MVHR here. Who would get in trouble for "breaking the rules"? The company or me (because I agreed to it)?

[TonyT]

And who is going to find out?

relax, open bottle of wine and forget about it

Edited June 15, 2023 by TonyT

[JohnMo]

10 minutes ago, DissyStitch said:

No MVHR here. Who would get in trouble for "breaking the rules"? The company or me (because I agreed to it)?

No one will get in to trouble, does anyone care.  The install company just charge you for each visit, so generally just a rip off.

 

But you really need a ventilation strategy. I would have trickle vents, then add humidity activated vents to them, so if you need additional ventilation they open automatically and then close as required.

 

https://www.bpdstore.co.uk/glidevale-energy-saver-humidity-sensitive-trickle-ventilator/p/182

 

[nod]

If they are replacement windows 

Your not required to have trickle vents 

At least in England 

[Big Jimbo]

In england, if your old windows didn't have trickle vents, then your replacement windows didn't have to have them either. This was classed as making the ventilation, no worse than before. That was about 3 years ago, so worth checking if still the case.

On my daughters house i got on quite well with the building inspector. I told him that i refused to fit trickle vents due to the thermal bi-pass, and that they were leaky pieces of crap. I had already fitted extractors to all of the wet areas, and the house was leaky as you like. I wasn't paying for tripple glazing and then putting ruddy great holes in them. He called me a grumpy old git, and sent my BR cert in the post.

[DissyStitch]

Thanks all. Must admit I'm liking TonyT's advice the most 🤭.

 

I guess I'm just concerned that due to the new rules regarding trickle vents, someone here has broken the rules and I'm not sure if that's them or me. Further down the line, if I sell the house for example, am I going to end up with some kind of bill.

 

From what I've read, and like Big Jimbo says, building control don't seem overly fussed about it and hopefully it won't be a problem anyway.

[Sparrowhawk]

You've got the installation certificate(s) x3 so who's going to check when you sell. Those certificates are all solicitors ask for.

 

There is no loophole BTW - they could've done one submission without installing the trickle vents and it would break the rules just the same.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Sparrowhawk

[jayc89]

1 hour ago, Big Jimbo said:

In england, if your old windows didn't have trickle vents, then your replacement windows didn't have to have them either. This was classed as making the ventilation, no worse than before. That was about 3 years ago, so worth checking if still the case.

On my daughters house i got on quite well with the building inspector. I told him that i refused to fit trickle vents due to the thermal bi-pass, and that they were leaky pieces of crap. I had already fitted extractors to all of the wet areas, and the house was leaky as you like. I wasn't paying for tripple glazing and then putting ruddy great holes in them. He called me a grumpy old git, and sent my BR cert in the post.

 

I thought that was the case, but recently (last year or so) changed, so even replacements now need vents (if there is no other ventilation, of course)

[Mike]

2 hours ago, JohnMo said:

No one will get in to trouble, does anyone care.  But you really need a ventilation strategy.

This. Trickle vents are there for a purpose and, unless you still live in a very leaky house despite the new windows, you do need a means of background ventilation.

[TonyT]

You could fit a vent axia low carbon fan to provide continuous ventilation 

[JohnMo]

24 minutes ago, Mike said:

This. Trickle vents are there for a purpose and, unless you still live in a very leaky house despite the new windows, you do need a means of background ventilation.

Exactly.

 

7 minutes ago, TonyT said:

You could fit a vent axia low carbon fan to provide continuous ventilation 

And they need trickle vents to perform correctly, as they provide cross flow ventilation, that's how dMEV works.

[TonyT]

You could open the window 

[JohnMo]

27 minutes ago, TonyT said:

You could open the window 

You indeed could, but that won't happen mid winter when you need ventilation. 

[TonyT]

And you can close the trickle vents off too in the winter 

[craig]

Trickle vents are not operated by the vast majority of people. They are simply not used for their intended purpose.

 

As of June 2022, trickles vents are now required on replacements in England, unless appropriate background ventilation exists.

[Gus Potter]

5 hours ago, DissyStitch said:

Who would liable for this? Would it be on me, or the double glazing company? I completely agreed at the time so I can't claim ignorance!

 

41 minutes ago, craig said:

As of June 2022, trickles vents are now required on replacements in England, unless appropriate background ventilation exists.

Hi @DissyStitch

 

Oh trickle vents.. subject of much discussion.

 

Ok to explore. Yes while you may feel you have agreed at the time and are now feeling boxed in you are afforded quite a lot of protection as a domestic customer. Now the contract you signed can't be unfair under the terms of the consumer protection act no matter what the double glazing company think. The contract you have even if loose is much different from a commercial contract where we expect that each party is experienced and has taken appropriate professional advice.. this type of commercial contract.. there are no friends in the desert here. But for you a court will take into account that you are a domestic and inexperienced Client.

 

"They said that vents are not required if 30% of the windows are replaced at a time. "

 

Now if you have that in writing then that is grist to the mill. Basically it is their responsibilty to check that they have are complying with the building regs and they also have a duty of care to you. The first question to ask is.. you installed the windows and where is the justification for your 30% view, the staged application process and how that sits with you having a correctly ventilated dwelling at the end of the day. Now it seems you have to some extent colluded to circumvent the ethos of the regs.. but they as a professional company should never have suggested you do this in the first place. If you write to them asking for justification and they don't respond then now you have recorded that.

 

Anyway you could just chose to run with it, but you know the risks I think. Or you could get a bit rough with the window folk and start to find other faults with their work and this allows you to put pressure on them.. you skin the cat another way. If I was asked to find faults I would start for example to look at the mastic around the windows for compliance, see if they are they are fitted in such a way that they compromise the insulation or not, then the drip on the cills, is it enough (NHBC like 40mm of a drip), check that the windows are square and that the drainage is working.. by pouring water into the bottom of the window frame and checking it comes out the front somewhere. I would also see if they have mucked about with existing load bearing lintels for example or damaged say roughcast. This is part of the visual inspection side.

 

Next stage is to say.. do we expose what is behind the reveals on the windows and look at the brackets and check they are ok structurally and as per the manufacture's specification. We also check that they have not compromised the fire barriers / cavity insulation if applicable.

 

At no point do we touch the window itself so as not to let the installer off the hook.. lots of photographs.

 

Next stage, the full Monty, would be to look at how the window is actually glazed.. have the glazed units been installed in the frame correctly and packed. Here I would call up someone say like at @craig and say do you know this system, how do we get the beads off to look at the glazing packing and can you send someone that knows how to do it without damaging the window?

 

The objective of the above is to bring the double glazing folk to the table.  To do this you need to find the stick to beat them with.

 

The trickle vents.. we go full circle and ask.. did you assess the ventilation before you installed the new windows? How do you justify your approach. Have you made the ventilation worse and compromised the other parts of the house. Never mind your fly stuff about submitting the thing in stages.. you have a duty not to compromise the rest of the house so lets see your figures and evidence.. and we will take it from there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave Jones]

wouldnt worry, as long as your house isnt new it will be leaky as hell anyway. If you start to fill up with condensation come the winter just buy a dehumidifier and leave it running 24x7.

 

There are no trickle vent police who will raid you dont worry, they are all too busy tacking the pro-noun abusers on twitter.

[JohnMo]

10 hours ago, TonyT said:

And you can close the trickle vents off too in the winter 

Not if you use the ones I referenced they open and close automatically.

[Big Jimbo]

1 minute ago, JohnMo said:

Not if you use the ones I referenced they open and close automatically.

I would like to see one up close and personal. They do look like more plastic rubbish to me. I wonder how well they work, and how long they will last.

[JohnMo]

They have been around for decades, you can buy metal ones as well from other sources. I thinks it's basically a polymer that contracts and expands with varying humidity, that in turn open and closed the vent. No batteries or power required.

[DissyStitch]

On 16/06/2023 at 01:18, Gus Potter said:

 

Hi @DissyStitch

 

Oh trickle vents.. subject of much discussion.

 

Ok to explore. Yes while you may feel you have agreed at the time and are now feeling boxed in you are afforded quite a lot of protection as a domestic customer. Now the contract you signed can't be unfair under the terms of the consumer protection act no matter what the double glazing company think. The contract you have even if loose is much different from a commercial contract where we expect that each party is experienced and has taken appropriate professional advice.. this type of commercial contract.. there are no friends in the desert here. But for you a court will take into account that you are a domestic and inexperienced Client.

 

"They said that vents are not required if 30% of the windows are replaced at a time. "

 

Now if you have that in writing then that is grist to the mill. Basically it is their responsibilty to check that they have are complying with the building regs and they also have a duty of care to you. The first question to ask is.. you installed the windows and where is the justification for your 30% view, the staged application process and how that sits with you having a correctly ventilated dwelling at the end of the day. Now it seems you have to some extent colluded to circumvent the ethos of the regs.. but they as a professional company should never have suggested you do this in the first place. If you write to them asking for justification and they don't respond then now you have recorded that.

 

Anyway you could just chose to run with it, but you know the risks I think. Or you could get a bit rough with the window folk and start to find other faults with their work and this allows you to put pressure on them.. you skin the cat another way. If I was asked to find faults I would start for example to look at the mastic around the windows for compliance, see if they are they are fitted in such a way that they compromise the insulation or not, then the drip on the cills, is it enough (NHBC like 40mm of a drip), check that the windows are square and that the drainage is working.. by pouring water into the bottom of the window frame and checking it comes out the front somewhere. I would also see if they have mucked about with existing load bearing lintels for example or damaged say roughcast. This is part of the visual inspection side.

 

Next stage is to say.. do we expose what is behind the reveals on the windows and look at the brackets and check they are ok structurally and as per the manufacture's specification. We also check that they have not compromised the fire barriers / cavity insulation if applicable.

 

At no point do we touch the window itself so as not to let the installer off the hook.. lots of photographs.

 

Next stage, the full Monty, would be to look at how the window is actually glazed.. have the glazed units been installed in the frame correctly and packed. Here I would call up someone say like at @craig and say do you know this system, how do we get the beads off to look at the glazing packing and can you send someone that knows how to do it without damaging the window?

 

The objective of the above is to bring the double glazing folk to the table.  To do this you need to find the stick to beat them with.

 

The trickle vents.. we go full circle and ask.. did you assess the ventilation before you installed the new windows? How do you justify your approach. Have you made the ventilation worse and compromised the other parts of the house. Never mind your fly stuff about submitting the thing in stages.. you have a duty not to compromise the rest of the house so lets see your figures and evidence.. and we will take it from there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, thanks for this in depth reply @Gus Potter. I haven't checked back here for a while so apologies if my lack of thanks appeared rude! I'm going to have a good read of your thoughts now. This situation is bothering me somewhat, I can't seem to shake it.