Roofing questions for the brave!

[Pocster]

Hey all,

 

Be prepared for lots of noob questions!; all help appreciated!! 

 

Guys have finished the timber frame and it looks AMAZING! - almost like a real house 

 

The roof confuses me (no sh*t). I understand on the main 'sides' it should be quite simple. Felt, batton with over hang at sides to allow for plastic fit verge things.

I appreciate I need to get the spacing of the battons correct so the gauge is correct and also they ultimately over hang the fascia enough for the gutter.

 

It's the front detail that confuses me. I have this hip thing! (not because I am cool!).

 

SO!; the dry fit hip is fine for a continuous row along the apex of the roof - seems simple enough.

 

But what happens when I meet the 'hip' and the hip tiles go in different directions?

There will be a gap between the meeting point of the 3 hip tiles. Also when the 2 separate runs of hip meet the dry verge how does that marry up?

 

Equally; assuming fascia is tacked onto fascia wood and tiles over hang edge and dry verge screwed to batton ends (assuming thats all correct) what happens when the angled verge meets the straight run at the base of the hip ? does it just run under the tiles that over hang the front?

 

Appreciate lots of my questions aren't perhaps clear!

 

So some photo's!

 

Final 2 photo's show lots of strips the roofing company sold me (typically!); what are they for?

 

All help appreciated as usual! - this thread might get quite long! 

 

 

 

 

[Oz07]

Are you doing this yourself? Personally I'd swallow the cost of a roofer. See if you can find a good one on day work and labour to him. There's a lot of tips and tricks they know and I doubt you'll find all the answers here! Also they've got all the right kit which will come within their rate - less consumables. Not saying this to sound rude, it's just what I'd do! Goes against ethos of forum I suppose!

[Pocster]

6 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Are you doing this yourself? Personally I'd swallow the cost of a roofer. See if you can find a good one on day work and labour to him. There's a lot of tips and tricks they know and I doubt you'll find all the answers here! Also they've got all the right kit which will come within their rate - less consumables. Not saying this to sound rude, it's just what I'd do! Goes against ethos of forum I suppose!

Yeah I did think this !

but where's the kudos of "I did it " :-)

im sure I can muddle through ( got this far ) - but any help from people whom are experience at this sure appreciated.

[Gone West]

We had those fitted on our roof.

Cut like this at the roof angle, ideally straight cuts. Covered with something like this:

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/marley-modern-plastic-hip-apex-cap-for-36-45-degree-pitch-grey.html

More help:

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/user/u/files/marley-dry-fix-brochure.pdf

 

 

[Temp]

58 minutes ago, pocster said:

I appreciate I need to get the spacing of the battons correct so the gauge is correct

 

That took me a while to figure out as I had half length tiles at verge and ridge. I used a wooden spacer to set the batten pitch but it only has to be fractions of a mm out and by the time you get to the ridge you can be miles out. Best stop and recalculate when you are about 10-15 battens below the ridge. It's also worth making a mock up of how the ridge and eaves will go.

 

1 hour ago, pocster said:

But what happens when I meet the 'hip' and the hip tiles go in different directions?

 

They may not do s "Hip Apex Cap" for your ridge system. If not I think you have to cover the area with a membrane patch and then cut ridge tiles so they mitre together like a hip apex cap.   

 

Darn Peter beat me to it.

[Barney12]

7 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

We had those fitted on our roof.

Cut like this at the roof angle, ideally straight cuts. Covered with something like this:

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/marley-modern-plastic-hip-apex-cap-for-36-45-degree-pitch-grey.html

More help:

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/user/u/files/marley-dry-fix-brochure.pdf

 

 

 

That's exactly how our gagare roof is cut for the hip. Also if mortar bedded you'll need a hook iron at the ends:

 

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/galvanized-hip-iron-300-x-100-x-25-x-3mm.html

 

edit: sorry just re-read and noticed you mentioned a dry ridge. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Barney12

[Declan52]

 

For when you get to the ridge with the plastic edges you need another end cap to suit your tile. It sits over the edges coming up the roof and hides the join.

Not sure what the other small bits are, hard to make it on your pic.

[Temp]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

Equally; assuming fascia is tacked onto fascia wood and tiles over hang edge and dry verge screwed to batton ends (assuming thats all correct) what happens when the angled verge meets the straight run at the base of the hip ? does it just run under the tiles that over hang the front?

 

Yes. The verge facias and the facia at the bottom of the hip are all in the same vertical plane.

 

One thing I found difficult was setting the height of the top of the facia - it supports the bottom tiles at the correct angle to match the rest of the roof.

[Pocster]

57 minutes ago, Barney12 said:

 

That's exactly how our gagare roof is cut for the hip. Also if mortar bedded you'll need a hook iron at the ends:

 

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/galvanized-hip-iron-300-x-100-x-25-x-3mm.html

 

edit: sorry just re-read and noticed you mentioned a dry ridge. 

 

 

https://www.roofingsuperstore.co.uk/product/marley-modern-plastic-hip-apex-cap-for-36-45-degree-pitch-grey.html

 

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

 

This is what I need for that 'messy' 3 way angle. I did speak to a roofing supplier and they said 'just chuck cement in there' - which seems rather crap.

I guess the issue is getting all the angles right.....

Edited August 10, 2017 by pocster

[Pocster]

44 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

 

For when you get to the ridge with the plastic edges you need another end cap to suit your tile. It sits over the edges coming up the roof and hides the join.

Not sure what the other small bits are, hard to make it on your pic.

 

This is the other end of the build for me. This is easy (ignoring the height!) I got this bit sorted in my head. Special bit of plastic to 'tie' the 2 verge angled runs together!

[Pocster]

31 minutes ago, Temp said:

 

Yes. The verge facias and the facia at the bottom of the hip are all in the same vertical plane.

 

One thing I found difficult was setting the height of the top of the facia - it supports the bottom tiles at the correct angle to match the rest of the roof.

SO!

 

(Assuming I understand!). The front verge plastic stuff goes up under the front 'end of hip tiles' ?

I can see the issue getting the 'sides' and hip flat tiles (not the ridge) to line up.

 

Because my roof tiles are laid right to left I'm starting on that particular side i.e. at the front - then I can check my hip stuff before I entire an entire side of the roof! 

[Pocster]

Oh yes!

 

I found out what those plastic strip things are for!. They are for where you cut the soffit and have to attach to the building side i.e. they cover up the rough cut! 

[Pocster]

SO!

 

Before I start batten and felt. I should put my fascia on flush with the fascia board (top edge i.e. where meets tiles). Then put those (what are they called!) bits of plastic that overhang the fascia but felt goes over to stop the felt sucking up water from the gutter.

This is the very first job yes? ; then felt batten side and meet horrible (bloody architect!) hip thing ! 

[ProDave]

19 minutes ago, pocster said:

SO!

 

Before I start batten and felt. I should put my fascia on flush with the fascia board (top edge i.e. where meets tiles). Then put those (what are they called!) bits of plastic that overhang the fascia but felt goes over to stop the felt sucking up water from the gutter.

This is the very first job yes? ; then felt batten side and meet horrible (bloody architect!) hip thing ! 

The top of the fascia board needs to be raised a bit because the bottom tile is not sitting on top of another tile. So if it's flush, the bottom tile will droop.

 

Best way is to mock it up, put the bottom two tile battens on, sit the bottom 2 rows of tiles on, then offer up a bit of fascia board complete with a strip of the over fascia vent on, and adjust it's height until all the tiles sit at the same angle. That then gives you how high your fascia needs to be in relation to the rafters.

 

Some styles even like to kick up the bottom row of tiles slightly but personally I don't like that.

[Oz07]

If you put a batten or perhaps 2 battens on top each other (if needed) at the very bottom of your rafters it should give your tile enough kick as if it's sitting on another tile then you can leave fascia till roof is done

[Pocster]

14 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The top of the fascia board needs to be raised a bit because the bottom tile is not sitting on top of another tile. So if it's flush, the bottom tile will droop.

 

Best way is to mock it up, put the bottom two tile battens on, sit the bottom 2 rows of tiles on, then offer up a bit of fascia board complete with a strip of the over fascia vent on, and adjust it's height until all the tiles sit at the same angle. That then gives you how high your fascia needs to be in relation to the rafters.

 

Some styles even like to kick up the bottom row of tiles slightly but personally I don't like that.

 

6 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

If you put a batten or perhaps 2 battens on top each other (if needed) at the very bottom of your rafters it should give your tile enough kick as if it's sitting on another tile then you can leave fascia till roof is done

Good plan guys !

i understand ! The bottom row of tiles will be at a different angle due to the lack of batten  ! 

[Triple07]

We slated our own roof and, it wasn't difficult just very time consuming....3 months...but that was one man at weekends and a couple of hours at night, we didn't have any hips tho but did have dormer windows, we chose lead flashings for our valleys and lime pointing to the underside of the slates where they meet the fascia. We also have a clay ridge. 

do you have ridge tiles going down your hips?

also the "strips" are for your tile edges, perhaps someone with a tiled roof could show you there's? 

[Triple07]

Sorry ignore above post, I wrote it much earlier in day but lost my connection and it only just sent...answers are much clearer from the others that responded!

[PeterW]

Have you plumbed up those fascias..? They look to be at 90 degrees to the rafters and they need to be at 90 degrees to horizontal. 

 

If you can get away with it to double up a batten then do that but don't forget to put eaves support trays and the membrane over the edge with enough to drop into the gutters. 

[Pocster]

35 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Have you plumbed up those fascias..? They look to be at 90 degrees to the rafters and they need to be at 90 degrees to horizontal. 

 

If you can get away with it to double up a batten then do that but don't forget to put eaves support trays and the membrane over the edge with enough to drop into the gutters. 

I haven't checked . I would hope / assume the timber frame guys got this right - but will check !!

[Pocster]

A question!

 

One video showed that the felt should stop 30mm short of the top.

I'm using roof shield and in their spec you lap over the apex (same from other side) by 150mm.

 

Assume I should follow roof shields spec - but why be 30mm short anyway?; surely best to go up and over the apex???

 

Though I then see it *should* be 30mm short because it's a vented dry ridge.....

Edited August 11, 2017 by pocster

[Temp]

Yes. If it's a cold roof (insulation between rafters) then you need 50mm ventilated air gap between membrane and insulation.... unless the membrane is vapour permeable.  If membrane is vapour permeable or it's a warm roof (insulation above rafters) you can run it over the ridge as no ventilation required (normally).

[Temp]

Just now, pocster said:

 

i understand ! The bottom row of tiles will be at a different angle due to the lack of batten  ! 

 

Exactly. In addition the tile needs to overhang into the gutter by the right amount. When you move a tile to get the overhang right it's angle changes meaning the height of the fasia board needs to change. Worth making a mock up on the roof that includes several rows of tiles and short lengths of battens, the gutter, fasia and any membrane support tray. Took me a few goes to get it all looking right.

[Pocster]

8 hours ago, Temp said:

 

Exactly. In addition the tile needs to overhang into the gutter by the right amount. When you move a tile to get the overhang right it's angle changes meaning the height of the fasia board needs to change. Worth making a mock up on the roof that includes several rows of tiles and short lengths of battens, the gutter, fasia and any membrane support tray. Took me a few goes to get it all looking right.

Will put a few photos up of my mock up so you guys can check 

[Pocster]

9 hours ago, Temp said:

Yes. If it's a cold roof (insulation between rafters) then you need 50mm ventilated air gap between membrane and insulation.... unless the membrane is vapour permeable.  If membrane is vapour permeable or it's a warm roof (insulation above rafters) you can run it over the ridge as no ventilation required (normally).

Yeah this where I get confused 

I'm using roof guard which is a breathable membrane . Will sag 10mm between trusses to allow water run off . Insulation will be between trusses not above ceiling . So I'm guessing I still stop the membrane 30mm short of apex ; perhaps it's irrelevant for a breathable membrane ?

 

cheers