Is the beam too big for purpose

[Sophiae]

19 hours ago, dpmiller said:

who or what is the management company? Is this a project manager or is it a rented property?

It’s my property and I am managing the project this time round. 

[Sophiae]

17 hours ago, Sparrowhawk said:

Then, and I know it won't be what you want to hear, the responsibility for the lack of headroom lies with you.

 

It would have been nice for all if the structural engineer had sense-checked this, or the builders before they put it up; but they didn't and in the end whoever is project managing is responsible.

 

(There's some depressing threads on this forum where people signed off on their window orders trusting the measurements in the order were correct - and even though the window company made the mistake, the responsibility lies with the one who signed).

None of that helps now, save to say that apportioning blame to anyone including yourself isn't going to be helpful.

 

People on this forum will be able to help you come up with a solution. We're rooting for you.

 

And as someone with neurodiverse siblings and a bit that way myself: most forum members can't/won't synthesise a 3 page thread in the way you (or I) do. They're dipping in amongst their busy lives. So to get the best help, start a new thread with floorplans, photos and a clear statement of one or two problems/outcomes you need help with. Post a link to it in this thread so ppl can jump across.

 

Something that I haven't seen mentioned yet: the joist is going to need fireproofing, which IIRC is a minimum of 25mm plasterboard around it (someone here please correct me). So that needs taking into account re headroom too.

Thank you so much for your honesty and advice. I shall do that. 
As neurodiverse I have been learning basic structural engineering online and carrying out some beam calculations to check my understanding. It’s not something I enjoy doing, but my neurones won’t rest until I am able to make sense of it. 
I had nearly accepted the idea of having this beam up until he turned around on Saturday and said remove the beam, replace the walls it rests on ( I call them shoulders) and put it back up. This is when I stopped everything and put all work on hold till I figure out the truthful answer regarding the steel. 

I believe he truly doesn’t understand how huge this beam is, even for the builders protested and charged me more as they didn’t believe they needed to pay 3 more guys to come and help them lift it up safely on 2 genies. So they said this too will cost me extra because the SE changed his mind after he signed off to installing it the first and second time. 

[Lofty718]

I think you put too much emphasis on being 'neurodiverse' you have written it in almost every post of yours.

 

There are plenty of self builders with autism and adhd and a host of other things, you shouldn't let that define you and hold you back and it's not as big of a deal as you think. Neurodiverse people will have advantages when it comes to some things the others do not.

 

 

[Sophiae]

53 minutes ago, Lofty718 said:

I think you put too much emphasis on being 'neurodiverse' you have written it in almost every post of yours.

 

There are plenty of self builders with autism and adhd and a host of other things, you shouldn't let that define you and hold you back and it's not as big of a deal as you think. Neurodiverse people will have advantages when it comes to some things the others do not.

 

 

It’s probably because of all the struggles I go through with people who don’t know me and recognise that I have difficulty expressing my self or communicating my thoughts in real life. 

[BadgerBadger]

Just to say I have massive respect for what you're doing - you've taken a risk and are pushing outside your comfort zone with the simple aim of providing a better home for your son that isn't otherwise available.  Some of your friends and family might not get that, but its the real essence of self-building so people on here do.

 

Now is the time to take a breath and focus on what is the best way forward for your project.  Worry less about how you into this situation.  As others have said the truth is some responsibility likely sits with yourself based on the way you've structured the project. You might not have realised it and that's fine, but based on what you're saying here I think you're more than capable.

 

From the input on this thread nobody is saying the beam calculations are wrong.  So if it was me, I'd stop worrying it was over-specified and now be finding the best way of raising it as high a possible.  Your SE sounds like they're looking for solutions, perhaps because they recognise their part in this mistake, so work with them and don't sour the relationship as it's likely to cost you more if you need to go elsewhere.

 

Negotiate with the builders and find the most cost-effective way forward.  Unfortunately it's going to cost you something but use the leverage you've got.  They don't sound blameless here either. Your SE's instructions on the padstones were in the drawings, so if they were having trouble because they couldn't find the right size padstones or whatever then they should be coming back to you for clarification and not just doing something different.

 

Good luck! I recommend you post up a new thread to get thoughts on the planned solution, it will get lost if you put it on this long one!

[saveasteading]

On 23/05/2023 at 04:29, Sophiae said:

What does it mean? 

This appears to be still unanswered. 

In the hope that it helps you set this aside as a matter to accept and stop worrying about, here is an explanation.

 

Each line is the weight of a material bearing onto the beam. The known weight per m2 or skin or m , as appropriate, is multiplied by the area, length etc. This provides the weight that the steel has to support, then the correct section of beam can be specified.

There is then a choice from a selection of standard beam sections. Tall and narrow beams are more structurally efficient (less steel) but take more height.

Chunky beams take up less height but use a lot more steel so are more expensive. 

 

Pad stones are standard. They cost about £25 each. They are high strength concrete blocks from any builders merchant and replace wall blocks where the beam sits. They spread the very concentrated load from the ends of the beam so that the normal (weaker) blocks can take the load without breaking.

Builders, architects , engineers, bco all should know this.

 

A solution to the height issue is often to build the joists into the side of the beam instead of on top. Most of the beam is then lost in the  ceiling space.

 

I suggest simply telling whoever is responsible to find a solution. Then post it here.

I agree that a new thread, with a simpler challenge, may help.

 

[Sophiae]

@BadgerBadger @saveasteading

Thank you both very much. 
I took about half a day off or so from brainstorming. I had a meeting with another structural engineer (a consult) to explain to me how the loads are calculated. Then I shared the SE’s calculations with him and he pointed out where the excess load came from. 
I believe the extra load was from the roof. He put a much bigger load forgetting that the roof sits on other walls too, hence the confusion. 
 

I have been given about 4 options and need to spend time this weekend doing the financial maths to see what choice would be feasible. 
 

i will start a new Thread and keep posting as I am sure I will need all of your wisdom and advice for everything to come. 
 

[Adsibob]

On 23/05/2023 at 07:57, Sophiae said:

After all he’s the expert. 

I think this is an oversight. An SE is only expert in structural engineering. He has no appreciation of aesthetics, convenience or even client management. This is why they are traditionally employed by, or in conjunction with, an architect. There are of course exceptions to this general rule, but in the same way you wouldn’t ask your kitchen fitter to design your kitchen, or your tiler to give you tips on interior design, you don’t leave key dimensions that impact the design of your extension to an engineer.

[saveasteading]

8 hours ago, Adsibob said:

SE is only expert in structural engineering. He has no appreciation of aesthetics, convenience or even client management. This is why they are traditionally employed by, or in conjunction with, an architect.

Is this a windup? Consider it successful.

The majority of Civil Engineers end up in general management, many outside of construction.

SE is a subset of CE.

Perhaps you have only met the ones who are proposed by architects.

The likelihood in this case is that the SE had a very limited brief and low fee....as set by client or their agent.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

30 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Is this a windup? Consider it successful.

I was going to say similar.

[MJNewton]

20 hours ago, Sophiae said:

I had a meeting with another structural engineer (a consult) to explain to me how the loads are calculated. Then I shared the SE’s calculations with him and he pointed out where the excess load came from. 
I believe the extra load was from the roof. He put a much bigger load forgetting that the roof sits on other walls too, hence the confusion. 

 

What size beam does he believe should've been specified?

[saveasteading]

12 hours ago, Adsibob said:

traditionally employed by, an architect. 

Hmm. There follows a short essay which I hope is helpful. 

 

I'm avoiding being angry, and taking this as an opportunity to correct a misunderstanding. It is a common one too, supported by excellent self promotion by Architects and less so by Engineers ( who tend to be immersed in the job). Journalists encourage this because they generally recognise "pretty" but don't understand science, especially physics.

 

So, who designed the wobbly Thames bridge? The Architect was all over the press until it wobbled, then disappeared while the Engineer sorted it. Arup gained a lot from that.

 

Who do you think designs, then manages motorways, bridges, dams? No Architect involved in any way. It's not  Surveyors either, it is entirely an Engineering project, with various other professions involved.

 

What profession do you think organised the Channel Tunnel? Then the main man also organised the London Olympics. Other names to the fore of course.

I would say they involved management.

 

Look at suspension bridges. Occasionally an architect tweaks details, then pushes themselves, but good engineering results in elegant design.....then the small matter of building the thing.

 

Teamwork in construction is essential of course. Is the gherkin architecture of engineering? Which matters more.. the appearance or it not falling down? 

 

Now of course it takes all types. The Engineer designing a beam in an hour from information supplied to them is probably not the same character as the head of an international contractor.

Also there is a career change after degree when you have to decide to stick with Civil or specialise in Structural Engineering.  The latter suits academics more, and the former suits hands-on and management types more.

 

I've nothing against Architects by the way.

 

I hope that clarifies somewhat.

 

Discuss.

[Adsibob]

@saveasteading I did not intend to criticise the SE. I was actually being critical of the way the SE was instructed, ie not via an architect and not with a detailed brief. At least one of those two things was required here. This of course assumes the architect would have given a detailed brief in accordance with the OP’s wishes. 
 

If no special instructions are given, then the SE’s remit is limited to designing a beam that works and proving to the BCO that it will work if asked by the BCO for calculations (my BCO asked to see all the SE’s calculations, not just the drawings). I guess I was lucky, in that my architect specifically asked our SE to conceal some of the beams in our construction, which would have really ruined aspects of the project otherwise. My architect also ensured the SE knew how much clearance we needed under the beam for our extension, and also asked for a certain maximum deflection. These were things I hadn’t really thought to ask, and had I not had my architect liaising with the SE, we would have ended up with a much worse end product. My architect and SE has worked together on previous projects, so I think that helped.

[saveasteading]

14 hours ago, Adsibob said:

An SE is only expert in structural engineering. He has no appreciation of aesthetics, convenience or even client management

Thankyou. Was this extract therefore  a typing error?

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Thankyou. Was this extract therefore  a typing error?

Possibly just taken out of context / worded 'poorly'?

 

Some written comms here are difficult to decipherer with some folk opening mouths seemingly just to change feet, (I think I actually invented Foot & Mouth tbh because of doing so "more than once") but things aren't very often meant in a bad way on here. Seems we have a reasonably decent bunch in residence.

 

 

[Thorfun]

3 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Seems we have a reasonably decent bunch in residence.

Even @pocster?

[Nickfromwales]

20 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

Even @pocster?

We make very special allowances for some.

[Nickfromwales]

Even with the cheap-skates.

[Nickfromwales]

Order has now been restored. As you were, people.

[Radian]

On 24/05/2023 at 22:32, Lofty718 said:

There are plenty of self builders with autism and adhd and a host of other things, you shouldn't let that define you and hold you back and it's not as big of a deal as you think. Neurodiverse people will have advantages when it comes to some things the others do not.

 

 

I have a pet theory that a good few self builders (if not most of us) are tipping the scales at this end of the spectrum 😉

[SteamyTea]

16 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Order has now been restored. As you were, people.

(expletive deleted), did I miss something

3 minutes ago, Radian said:

are tipping the scales at this end of the spectrum

I want Tourette's, then I can legitimately ask to have the swear filter removed.

[Nickfromwales]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

(expletive deleted), did I miss something

Nope, all good. Go back to counting kiLler-wHale-hOurs please (LHO for future reference)  

[Sophiae]

12 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Is this a windup? Consider it successful.

The majority of Civil Engineers end up in general management, many outside of construction.

SE is a subset of CE.

Perhaps you have only met the ones who are proposed by architects.

The likelihood in this case is that the SE had a very limited brief and low fee....as set by client or their agent.

 

 

In my case, the SE was chosen not by price, he was the closest to the property with excellent reviews. He named his price and I didn’t even negotiate, he even asked for £200 extra to give his opinion on the flat roof. 
He attended to the property, spent time taking measurements and pictures, spoke about my needs and hopes and he had open access to contact me with any queries. 
A few days later, he returned back with the final design and calculations and silly ignorant me thought he delivered what was needed to make our dream of space come true with no hiccups. 
No consults, no conversation, no choices, no options. Just one design. 

[Sophiae]

12 hours ago, MJNewton said:

 

What size beam does he believe should've been specified?

He gave me 2 options : 203X203X71 UC with steel bearing plates on the sides

305X165X54 UB. 
 

[Nickfromwales]

8 minutes ago, Sophiae said:

He gave me 2 options : 203X203X71 UC with steel bearing plates on the sides

305X165X54 UB. 
 

Would the 203 have given you the headroom that you assumed you were going to get?