Is the beam too big for purpose

[Sophiae]

I am in a very tight and extremely frustrating situation. 
A reputable structural engineer was assigned to design and calculate replace a load bearing wall with steel beam along with another beam for the new wall to hold the bifold doors. 
Once the beam arrived the builders were shocked at the size and weight of it. They said it was definitely over specked. 
The SE stood by his design and the beam was fitted as he is the expert. 
Unfortunately it left us with only 190cms room height below the beam. 
i was beyond furious and spoke to him immediately. He blamed it on the builders for not spotting the width of it in the design and said there were alternatives but he wasn’t responsible for anything else as he gave me what he said a design fit for my budget. 
He offered to give me a different design but I would have to pay for full replacement. I lost my cool and he came with another solution and removed an extra piece of timber support that gave us another 7cms in room height. 
I obviously was still extremely sad, frustrated and to be frank angry that I wasn’t presented with any options from the word go. 
I fed back to him about his communication with me and the lack of understanding of the situation we’re in. The builders quoted me anothe £3K to remove this beam and install a new one should I choose to.

 

Another issue was his Padstone size which doesn’t make sense (800mm)!!! 
I know I am the furthest from the field or understanding all of it, but why is everything so big for a rear extension to a detached single story bungalow. I understand that clear span opening I asked for to be as wide as it could possibly be, so the steel has to be strong, but weighing nearly 600Kgs for an under 6m clean span? Seriously? 
 

anyone here able to have a look and tell me honestly what is going on? 
 

i put everything on hold till I get a new quote from a couple of SE I contacted but it’s the weekend and I can’t sleep from overthinking. 

Beams 1&2.pdf

[Pocster]

Afraid I can’t help you .

My SE over spec’d our beam by 350% !! . I did go mental with him .

I believe SE’s over spec massively on a regular basis . Of course this then creates issues like you have ( not to mention increased costs of course ) 

[nod]

He has over specked But probably not by as much as you think 

The problem with bifolds is If the beam above settles Even five mil They won’t close and he’s liable 

[Sophiae]

21 minutes ago, nod said:

He has over specked But probably not by as much as you think 

The problem with bifolds is If the beam above settles Even five mil They won’t close and he’s liable 

My problem is mostly the other beam (1).

[Mr Punter]

I assume that it is B1 that is an issue, so nothing to do with bifolds?  The span for the knock through is really wide and needs a deep beam to provide support.  400mm drop down into the room is a lot though and I can imagine spoils the open look.

 

Perhaps a bit more thought at the design stage would have given a better solution.

[Sophiae]

1 minute ago, Mr Punter said:

I assume that it is B1 that is an issue, so nothing to do with bifolds?  The span for the knock through is really wide and needs a deep beam to provide support.  400mm drop down into the room is a lot though and I can imagine spoils the open look.

 

Perhaps a bit more thought at the design stage would have given a better solution.

That’s exactly it. Spot on. 
There was no communication whatsoever, no options were given. He delivered it and took his money and that’s all. No explanation of the details, what will happen or alternatives. 
 

[Nickfromwales]

The main problem is that novice DIY'ers just don't ask the questions they need to, when they need to. I've just been detailing a window and door installation for a client and the window fitter wanted to frame-fix everything. Let's just say that he is now using the correct manufacturer-specified fixings, and they're not being fixed within 20mm of the face of the ICF core!!

Client pays me to oversee / act as a sounding board for whatever he doesn't know, and we can (usually) iron out these creases whilst the job is still on paper.

A quick sketch from your builder would have shown the sections and you could have then said "STOP", and then done a re-work.

Steel beams deflect, and the sliders themselves will expand, so that is another important detail, but this does sound OTT, listening from afar.

[TonyT]

SE over spec to allow for piss poor builder to ensure there isn’t a claim on their insurance..

[Pocster]

7 minutes ago, TonyT said:

SE over spec to allow for piss poor builder to ensure there isn’t a claim on their insurance..

I was the piss poor builder 🤣

[Sophiae]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

The main problem is that novice DIY'ers just don't ask the questions they need to, when they need to. I've just been detailing a window and door installation for a client and the window fitter wanted to frame-fix everything. Let's just say that he is now using the correct manufacturer-specified fixings, and they're not being fixed within 20mm of the face of the ICF core!!

Client pays me to oversee / act as a sounding board for whatever he doesn't know, and we can (usually) iron out these creases whilst the job is still on paper.

A quick sketch from your builder would have shown the sections and you could have then said "STOP", and then done a re-work.

Steel beams deflect, and the sliders themselves will expand, so that is another important detail, but this does sound OTT, listening from afar.

I am starting to believe that because I am a single female with no Male in the picture everyone feels it’s ok, I don’t understand, I won’t argue. 
 

You’d think the builders would have spotted it before hand, but they didn’t and when he did, the Beam was already at the property ready to be fitted with 5 guys struggling to move it around. 

So how do we move forward from here? 

[Sophiae]

1 hour ago, TonyT said:

SE over spec to allow for piss poor builder to ensure there isn’t a claim on their insurance..

Yes but isn’t this way too much even for that? 

[Sophiae]

1 hour ago, pocster said:

I was the piss poor builder 🤣

Everyone is insured, the SE and the builders, why would there be worry if everyone did their job right? 

[Jilly]

As a professional no one wants to claim on their PI, it's a matter of honour, it's not like other types of insurance as far as I am concerned. 

These things happen, I was a novice self builder too and part of my problems came from inexperience and thinking I could manage without the origional architect.

Keep your cool and accept it's going to cost something. Stuff ups do happen even to experienced builders, and there are ways round things and compromises might be possible with open discussion. 

Building is stressful, but if you lose it, people can walk (unless that is what you want) and you could be left with an open house, so try to stay calm in your dealings with them.

Ask everyone for their suggestions of how to move forward and see what might work.

Get the best advice you can from here and have new conversations to figure out a way forward together. 

If you stay friendly with the builder, he will have your back, and have some guilt, if not responsibility, so try to stay on good terms with everyone. Is there anyone you can ask to help with the difficult conversations? 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Jilly

[Thorfun]

11 minutes ago, Sophiae said:

Yes but isn’t this way too much even for that? 

that's for a structural engineer to determine. there are some SEs on this forum ( @Gus Potter is one that comes to mind) who might be able to assist but I think you need to take a breath and wait for the other SEs you've engaged to respond. you've done the right thing putting things on hold so take the time to get a second or third opinion and when you have more information make an informed decision.

[Sophiae]

10 minutes ago, Jilly said:

As a professional no one wants to claim on their PI, it's a matter of honour, it's not like other types of insurance as far as I am concerned. 

These things happen, I was a novice self builder too and part of my problems came from inexperience and thinking I could manage without the origional architect.

Keep your cool and accept it's going to cost something. Stuff ups do happen even to experienced builders, and there are ways round things and compromises might be possible with open discussion. 

Building is stressful, but if you lose it, people can walk (unless that is what you want) and you could be left with an open house, so try to stay calm in your dealings with them.

Ask everyone for their suggestions of how to move forward and see what might work.

Get the best advice you can from here and have new conversations to figure out a way forward together. 

If you stay friendly with the builder, he will have your back, and have some guilt, if not responsibility, so try to stay on good terms with everyone. Is there anyone you can ask to help with the difficult conversations? 

 

 

Thank you so much for a much needed sound advice. Unfortunately I don’t have many people to discuss this with as I live alone with my Autistic child. We are both Autistic and I have issues opening up to people. I am here seeking a family and a village to learn from, open discussion and take sound practical advice, people with experience in this building field. 
 

My family abroad sort of blame me for taking on such a project as they didn’t believe we need it. Unfortunately they also don’t want to accept that me and my son have needs and couldn’t possibly function in the old layout safely.

 

Till now I haven’t directly blamed the builders for anything except given them some feedback about the lack of spotting the design fault, where all of this could have been rectified with a new design from the SE or a new one. I haven’t made a big deal of it because again it’s not their fault or design, they are simply fitters in a way. 
 

The SE has just rejected the padstone made on site, saying he can’t guarantee the quality of blocks underneath it (the original wall) and wants the builders to rebuild it with N7 blocks instead and using a lintel at the end. 
Previously he has approved it and after I questioned his choice of Precast padstone 800mm, and the fact that it isn’t something available, he changed his mind and as a retaliation, he asked those to be knocked down and rebuilt. 

[Sophiae]

17 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

that's for a structural engineer to determine. there are some SEs on this forum ( @Gus Potter is one that comes to mind) who might be able to assist but I think you need to take a breath and wait for the other SEs you've engaged to respond. you've done the right thing putting things on hold so take the time to get a second or third opinion and when you have more information make an informed decision.

Yes. I am trying to save myself from getting a stroke or a heart attack or even diabetes as a result of all the stress these last 2 weeks have had on me. 
I feel so sad 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

[Jilly]

1 hour ago, Sophiae said:

Yes. I am trying to save myself from getting a stroke or a heart attack or even diabetes as a result of all the stress these last 2 weeks have had on me. 
I feel so sad 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

Seriously, you are not the only one. Nearly everyone here has felt super stressed out occasionally or regularly and lost a lot of sleep, which sends you round the bend. This will get sorted somehow, and it will be a distant memory next year when you have your lovely new kitchen. 

I find writing things down helps. Make charts of possible solutions and the pros and cons.

Think of ways to save money to mitigate, such as using your old appliances for a while etc. Ask here for suggestions. 

Do something to take your mind off it for a while.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Jilly

[Sophiae]

14 minutes ago, Jilly said:

Seriously, you are not the only one. Nearly everyone here has felt super stressed out occasionally or regularly and lost a lot of sleep, which sends you round the bend. This will get sorted somehow, and it will be a distant memory next year when you have your lovely new kitchen. 

I find writing things down helps. Make charts of possible solutions and the pros and cons.

Think of ways to save money to mitigate, such as using your old appliances for a while etc. Ask here for suggestions. 

Do something to take your mind off it for a while.

The bitter sweet. All my appliances in the property were stolen by last year’s builders. I couldn’t get myself to report them to the police. 
I am keeping a diary and trying to find some sense through distant friends who have gone through the difficulties in their build as well. 
Thank you for supporting me here. I truly appreciate it. 

[Sophiae]

On another note, would someone kindly turn to page 7 and tell me this “First floor” is meant to be there for a single story property? I had and have no near or distant intention to have a loft conversation or build anything above so not sure what to make of this. Or is it standard for the loft area? 

[Jilly]

I can’t answer this properly, but could the SE have cut and pasted info, or even spec’d the big beam thinking there would be a 1st floor? That’s definitely work checking out…

[Sophiae]

2 hours ago, Jilly said:

I can’t answer this properly, but could the SE have cut and pasted info, or even spec’d the big beam thinking there would be a 1st floor? That’s definitely work checking out…

Just ran them by a friend of a friend and he confirmed the SE has mistakenly added a first floor on top of the ground floor, hence all this mess we’re in. 
I am shocked, devastated, mortified. His reputation was very good and he is more than qualified not to make this colossal mistake. 
I feel frozen but will try and find how can I make him take responsibility for this. I am speechless.

[Jilly]

Ok, don't panic, it's a Saturday night, you can't get any answers from him right now, but s**t happens sometimes. 

 

I hope someone can come along and give you better advice, but I agree you need a second opinion.

 

I wish @Gus Potter was around as he's an SE and would give helpful suggestions.

[TonyT]

Best make sure the architect didn’t give the SE the wrong info, just in case you go in with guns blazing..

[Adsibob]

8 hours ago, Sophiae said:

That’s exactly it. Spot on. 
There was no communication whatsoever, no options were given. He delivered it and took his money and that’s all. No explanation of the details, what will happen or alternatives. 
 

Did you ask for alternatives? Otherwise, it’s like calling a car dealership, asking for a car, and being sent one you didn’t want. If you want a BMW you need to ask for one. Otherwise you might get a Dacia.

Trying to be more constructive, it’s worth noting that RSJs typically aren’t that expensive. Once you get a new design from a new SE, you might find that the RSj supplier is willing to deliver the new beam and take the old beam away at the same time, and that it won’t cost more than a few hundred pounds for the supplier’s trouble. Find out who the supplier is, call them directly and see if they are amenable to helping you (once you have the spec for the new beam of course).

Edited May 20, 2023 by Adsibob

[Sophiae]

2 hours ago, TonyT said:

Best make sure the architect didn’t give the SE the wrong info, just in case you go in with guns blazing..

Nope, it’s not the architect that gave him the measurements, he attended to site, I was there, then he took the architectural plans, and took his own measurements. If you look at where he placed the beam, just under the roof. He even told me we can notch the trusses a bit to raise the beam up 4cm more when he was confronted with the disaster of 190cm height. 
I have an email and another revised drawing, so why would I need a steel this size under the roof if it wasn’t the only floor? Usually the steel will sit under the first floor. 
I confess I am autistic, but I am not stupid. Everything didn’t make sense since the beams arrived. 

 

1 hour ago, Adsibob said:

Did you ask for alternatives? Otherwise, it’s like calling a car dealership, asking for a car, and being sent one you didn’t want. If you want a BMW you need to ask for one. Otherwise you might get a Dacia.

Trying to be more constructive, it’s worth noting that RSJs typically aren’t that expensive. Once you get a new design from a new SE, you might find that the RSj supplier is willing to deliver the new beam and take the old beam away at the same time, and that it won’t cost more than a few hundred pounds for the supplier’s trouble. Find out who the supplier is, call them directly and see if they are amenable to helping you (once you have the spec for the new beam of course).

When I asked him why did he present me with one option and didn’t give me choice, he said because it was the cheapest option as I was on a tight budget!!!!!

He refused to take any responsibility for treating me like I didn’t deserve to think for myself and decide whether I can afford it or not. 
These 2 beams cost £4856 delivered. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Sophiae