I'm Steve a one time only self builder planning for the quiet life in West Wales

[joe90]

2 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

What you need is a study

Ah no, what I meant is there is no such thing as a measurable element of thermal mass and this was pointed out by a previous member here, If you’re interested do a search on this site fir the “discussions”. In reality we all know what you mean and many (including myself) use that term just beware someone may raise the issue.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

I found this interesting….

Oh, a hipster, they seem to dated now.  Porous walls that absorb moisture, fantastic.  And non structural, so where is the advantage.

19 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

What you need is a study

Only had a very quick skim though, cannot see the floor areas of the buildings, lots about wall areas.

But, from page 39.

"Average daily consumption 65kw which is around 7kw higher"

I shall let other comment on the validity of that statement.  I just piss people off pointing out the mistake.

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, joe90 said:

just beware someone may raise the issue.

Does that really happen, must have pasted me by.

[joe90]

9 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Does that really happen

It did but a while ago now, just trying to protect a newby.

[The Reverend]

I'm not advocating hemp as the best building material, I chose it because it has a lower carbon footprint and that is important to my family. Like all build systems it has advantages and disadvantages, I here to to learn from other peoples experiences and share some of my own.🖖

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

I chose it because it has a lower carbon footprint and that is important to my family.

Have you compared all the option in ICE.

 

[The Reverend]

34 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Have you compared all the option in ICE.

 

I had a quick look but it's 50 pages and I couldn't find hempcrete. Did I miss it?

[SteamyTea]

55 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

I had a quick look but it's 50 pages and I couldn't find hempcrete. Did I miss it?

Not sure, it is a while since I used it, and it may not be the latest version.  They have a habit of moving things about.

 

Have you considered blown cellulose?

Basically you will be building a timber frame house, then filling the voids with some sort of insulation.  Cellulose is just minced up newspapers, but has excellent sound absorption qualities and good thermal inertia properties.

[The Reverend]

7 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Not sure, it is a while since I used it, and it may not be the latest version.  They have a habit of moving things about.

 

Have you considered blown cellulose?

Basically you will be building a timber frame house, then filling the voids with some sort of insulation.  Cellulose is just minced up newspapers, but has excellent sound absorption qualities and good thermal inertia properties.

Our architect suggested it but there are some pretty nasty chemicals added to make it fire proof resistant. On top of that is all the taping of joints to make it air tight and what happens to the tapes when the adhesion dries out and gaps appear, if moisture then gets in I dread to think of the mess that would be created.

It's just my opinion but a lot of modern building construction seems to be short term 'in the moment' options and only time will tell if these system work.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

On top of that is all the taping of joints to make it air tight and what happens to the tapes when the adhesion dries out and gaps appear

From what I understand about hempcrete, it is inherently non airtight, and absorbs moisture.

The tapes used are not the same as cheap roll of gaffer tape from the pound shop.  They are engineered products.  You will be needing to use them anyway to pass your airtightness test.

If 'nasty' chemicals were used, they would be banned.  Not as if we are ignorant of this anymore, we don't see people dropping dead from industrial diseases these days.  When I started working in the 1970s, raw asbestos fibres were still mixed in, by hand, with the polymers we were using, the world has moved on, thankfully (thankfully my Mother told me I was not going to work for Railko).

 

It is very easy to fall down the environmental rabbit hole, trouble is the conclusions end up the same that people are the problem (not one I subscribe to).

My view when it comes to housing is that with our current housing replacement rates, what we build today will have to last 500 years (saw an interesting talk about it a few years back).  Trouble is, apart from building with natural stone and a lot of ongoing maintenance, that is not going to work out.  So second best is to reduce energy demand of housing, which means either more land is used overall per square metre of living area, or more modern materials.

The international space station is not insulated with hemp and lambs wool for a reason, my car does not have cart wheel made from ash.

And then you may end up with a misguided neighbour with a wood burner who thinks 'it is carbon neutral' and 'the smoke is alright in the countryside'.

[Haylingbilly]

19 hours ago, The Reverend said:

Working in Housing Development for the local Council I see a lot of older housing sites being cleared for new homes and the waste is horrible. The plastics and foam are sent to land fill or incinerated and I don't want to leave that mess for our children to deal with in the future. Since the start of the incinerator in Cardiff a new brown.orange layer hangs over the city and especially visible in the late evening. Even on the new new builds the amount of waste is huge with skips full of cut bricks and blocks all of which represent waste energy and mineral resources.

With Hemp if you spill some you just put it the next mix so no waste.😊

I agree the level of waste can be horrific on some sites - but you can build traditionally and not generate anywhere near the normal level of waste - by ordering carefully, sorting waste out (wood, cardboard, food containers - builders seem to go through no end of plastic bottles), free cycle (people will take very small amounts of insulation etc if it is free), and broken blocks, tiles etc can be used for hardcore for your patio base - I think very little waste will be generated by your choice of build route. And once your builders know that you are on the case on waste, they will be more careful and having of cuts sorted and laid out, they will be more likely to use them.

[Iceverge]

5 hours ago, The Reverend said:

Our architect suggested it but there are some pretty nasty chemicals added to make it fire proof resistant. On top of that is all the taping of joints to make it air tight and what happens to the tapes when the adhesion dries out and gaps appear, if moisture then gets in I dread to think of the mess that would be created.

It's just my opinion but a lot of modern building construction seems to be short term 'in the moment' options and only time will tell if these system work.

 

Have you done much research on this or is it just hunches? 

 

Gut feelings can be pretty unreliable when it comes to building, partly because we're at the recieving end of a century of commercial interests presenting their product as the newest and greatest. If you really want to get informed then you'll need to dig beyond any "opinions" of professionals and infomercials. If you don't you're going to overpay for a substandard house. 

 

For instance here's a report about cellulose toxicity with a screenshot of the summary. 

 

TOX-74: Cellulose Insulation - National Toxicology Program https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/go/tox074

 

 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, Andy brown said:

once your builders know that you are on the case on waste,

And your designers.

 

I would have to rummage a long way back, but i recall that the big contractors had targets of something like 10 skips per 1,000m2.* (Ours was 2.)

That involved everyone through technical design, ordering, and use as well as site manager ordering reuse of ends etc. 

But on top of this came simply using less in the first place. Efficient use of all structural elements, no overdesign, no overdig, natural drainage...all sorts.

We reckoned 25% less material used, let alone waste.

So my view was that hemp etc were easy ways to seem green, while not addressing the less blingy aspects of waste.....use less.

 

It also saves stacks of your money.

 

What i don't understand is that straw is not used in the same way as osb. Or in blocks. There is so much as a waste product.

I think sawdust is still added to concrete blocks as a filler.

 

* that became zero to landfill, so a good thing. They way they managed that with mixed rubbish was to classify it as non recycable.  Less to recycling would be even better.

[The Reverend]

5 hours ago, Andy brown said:

I agree the level of waste can be horrific on some sites - but you can build traditionally and not generate anywhere near the normal level of waste - by ordering carefully, sorting waste out (wood, cardboard, food containers - builders seem to go through no end of plastic bottles), free cycle (people will take very small amounts of insulation etc if it is free), and broken blocks, tiles etc can be used for hardcore for your patio base - I think very little waste will be generated by your choice of build route. And once your builders know that you are on the case on waste, they will be more careful and having of cuts sorted and laid out, they will be more likely to use them.

I wish contractors would think as you do.

[The Reverend]

1 hour ago, Iceverge said:

 

Have you done much research on this or is it just hunches? 

 

Gut feelings can be pretty unreliable when it comes to building, partly because we're at the recieving end of a century of commercial interests presenting their product as the newest and greatest. If you really want to get informed then you'll need to dig beyond any "opinions" of professionals and infomercials. If you don't you're going to overpay for a substandard house. 

 

For instance here's a report about cellulose toxicity with a screenshot of the summary. 

 

TOX-74: Cellulose Insulation - National Toxicology Program https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/go/tox074

 

 

 

 

 

 

While the cellulose itself may not be harmful I'm concerned about the Borasic Acid and Ammonium sulfate that it's treated with. I'll think I will stick with rockwool for the roof and hemp for the walls. Thank you for suggesting it though.

[saveasteading]

2 hours ago, The Reverend said:

Have you done much research on this or is it just hunches? 

Hunches for me, but based on a lot of experience and also considering each new product as it is introduced, discounting most.

 

My concern re  old newspapers cellulose is that it may have been finding a use for a waste product, rather than a genius new product.

Paper gets wet and soggy and slumps. Insects and rodents like soft sheltered nests, buildings have flaws.

I foresee papier mache at the bottom of a void.

[Alan Ambrose]

>>> Don’t be to quick to cross off a log burner 

 

Yeah, agree, one of my must haves.

 

And I know that cellulose is popular here but I have some of the same concerns as @saveasteading

Edited May 9, 2023 by Alan Ambrose

[saveasteading]

Generally on waste.

I was in a contractors' discussion group once (before it became a 'thing')  where we swapped ideas, even when we were in competition.

A few points arising.  This is for new build not demo.

 

1. Skips cost about £2,000 each. £250 for the hire and the rest for the stuff you should not have bought' only to throw it in a skip.

2. Subcontractors and trades don't care when it is your material.

3. Site managers only care when they are completely bought into the principle, which is rare.

4. Cautious or non-joined-up design causes more waste (material used needlessly) than disposed of waste.

Some designers will be interested while others don't like to be told to try again.

5. The chairperson offered  a site visit, and reported back that he could not improve on  our methods or quantity.

 

1. Air is very expensive. All boxes to be flattened and stored separately. Timber ditto. There should be no useful stuff in the skip. Bricks and blocks used or expensive hardcore. 

2. They have to be made to care, knowing you are watching. using aggregate bags by material instead of skips makes it obvious and big stuff doesn't fit. (example  tile battten offuts taken back up to use or cut to fit a hipp bag...maight as well use them...10% improvement on batten purchasing.)

Tell them there is hardly any spare material so don't waste it. Emptying and refilling concentrates the mind and saves half a skip.

3.We (the group) devised a form where the site manager had to list the approx contents of the skip, and report on what we could do better . It was easier to do better than fill in the form.

Some were known to use diggers to squash the contents, ie achieving reduced number of skips but not of waste.  A competitor said his managers starting using grab lorries to keep the number of skips down.

4. Understand costs. tell the designer what it really costs to, for example, use a 600mm tench instead of 450mm.

5. Yes, he was the well meaning expert for a waste quango, but was learning from us contractors.  Other contractors perhaps cared less.

 

The above can be worth about 20% of a project cost. especially number 4, which is the invisible one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave Jones]

its second fix where the waste piles up. Masses of cardboard, styrophome, plastic etc. All of which is needed to protect the material in transit.

 

During build there is relatively little waste upto 1st fix on a traditional build. Just plastic wrap, cement bags,  straps, and pallets etc. 1 skip was plenty on our 4 bed. second fix easy fill a couple skips if you dont have a machine on site to squash it down.

 

Burned any waste wood as its carbon neutral.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Dave Jones

[Iceverge]

On 08/05/2023 at 15:59, The Reverend said:

While the cellulose itself may not be harmful I'm concerned about the Borasic Acid and Ammonium sulfate that it's treated with. I'll think I will stick with rockwool for the roof and hemp for the walls. Thank you for suggesting it though.

 

Did you get a chance to read that report, or even skim it? 

 

Alternatively why not woodfiber batts or hemp/flax batts or blown woodfiber insulation to keep the embodied energy as low as possible. If you're dead set against borates these may be contained within too. Mind you most mineral wool has formaldehyde so you pays your money, takes your chances....

 

 

Taken from the excellent greenspec.co.uk website. 

 

I really like natural insulants but the only one which my cheap ass would(did) pay for is cellulose. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Iceverge

[saveasteading]

51 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

Burned any waste wood as its carbon neutral.

A good stir to get us going today!

No, I think you burned it because it was cheaper than a skip and macho fun.

Reusing it would be neutral.

Does the council accept wood as a separated product?

 

[ToughButterCup]

@The Reverend is here for a quiet life (ostensibly) leave the poor man alone. Leave 'im to mind his knotweed in peace. 

[SteamyTea]

22 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

Burned any waste wood as its carbon neutral.

A good stir to get us going today!

I shall say nothing, only because I am reading this week's scientific, as opposed to opinion based, comic.

 

[Big Jimbo]

while @SteamyTea is reading this weeks scientific, i am sitting eating my toast wondering.... Wood when growing stores carbon. When we burn it, is all that released back into the air ? Don't all chuckle, i went to a good catholic school where very little science was taught, because god did it all.

[saveasteading]

34 minutes ago, Big Jimbo said:

school where very little science was taught,

At (early) primary school our kids did 'science' including growing seeds. Their teacher thought that the substance of the tree came from the ground. 

Burnt timber doesn't just become carbon and a few trace elements though, and the smoke, ash, resins etc are going to take a long time to become air again.