Glazing as Guarding: a piece of 4 by 2, or a blizzard of emails?

[ToughButterCup]

Have a read of this from my BCO ...

 

Quote

Following our telephone conversation yesterday below as I promised is an extract from Approved document K which supports the Building Regulations and offers guidance on the requirements relating to glazing in buildings.

 

Section 3.2 - Design of guarding for all buildings should be provided in accordance with all of the following.

a. Ensure that guarding is, as a minimum, the height shown in Diagram 3.1.

b. You can use any wall, parapet, balustrade or similar obstruction as guarding.

c. Ensure that guarding can resist, as a minimum, the loads given in BS EN 1991-1-1 with its UK National Annex and PD 6688-1-1.

d. Where glazing is used in the guarding, refer also to Section 5 in this approved document.

 

Typical locations for guarding are shown in Diagram 3.2. For further guidance on the design of barriers and infill panels, refer to BS 6180

 

Can you please forward confirmation from your glass supplier that all relevant glazing complies with the above.

 

Our wonderful treble glazed  windows upstairs go floor to (almost ceiling)

 

Yawn.

 

I feel like banging a piece of 4 by 2 on the wall in front of the windows , getting it  signed off and move on.... 

Write to the manufacturers asking for certification ?  ...  life's too short.

 

Now I know how Grand Designs stair cases become  non - compliant.

Edited May 5, 2023 by ToughButterCup

[Kelvin]

I’ve often thought that watching GD! 

[craig]

10 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

Have a read of this from my BCO ...

 

 

Our wonderful treble glazed  windows upstairs go floor to (almost ceiling)

 

Yawn.

 

I feel like banging a piece of 4 by 2 on the wall in front of the windows , getting it  signed off and move on.... 

Write to the manufacturers asking for certification ?  ...  life's too short.

 

Now I know how Grand Designs stair cases become  non - compliant.

As I mentioned on a call to you a coupke of weeks back, tell the BCO to do his/her job and check the glazing. They’ve also had the performance declaration and glazing document supplied. What is it they expect to be supplied now?

Edited May 5, 2023 by craig

[ProDave]

Our BCO just looked at the marks on the panes in the corner stating what was toughened and what was laminated.  They only did this for "low level" windows and glazed doors.  Unless you have some dodgy non compliant glass (unlikely) that is all that needs to be done.

 

But if you can fit a bit of 4 by 2 in a way you can remove it later without leaving much to touch up, that might be the solution.  But I fear that on it's own will not be enough, you will need spindles at <100mm spacing as well.

[ETC]

Asking for confirmation your window/glazing supplier that glass is safety glass is a standard enough request from a BCO and is not a way for them to get out of doing their job. Sometimes the marking is difficult to see (high up or low down or partly concealed by a strip) or is in a different or unusual format. It’s a straightforward request and is quite easily for a supplier to give.

[craig]

35 minutes ago, ETC said:

It’s a straightforward request and is quite easily for a supplier to give.

It is but is also a job the BCO should be checking. I’am that supplier in this instance and it has been supplied but appears they still want more.

[ETC]

BCOs should only need a confirmation from you that the glass is safety glass.

 

It’s not that BCO don’t check - they do check but sometimes the text is so small to read or the windows are dirty at the time of the inspection - there could be a number of reasons. It’s also a belt and braces approach.

 

In any case you could refuse to confirm that the glass is safety glass and insist that the BCO satisfies him or herself that the glass is safety glass.

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

12 hours ago, ETC said:

...

In any case you could refuse to confirm that the glass is safety glass and insist that the BCO satisfies him or herself that the glass is safety glass.

 

Really ?

I asked him for a concise problem statement ... and that appears to me to be (as above).

 

The statement is concise - but importantly NOT precise. 

Because, as @craig says he has sent the documentation from the manufacturer.

 

But the BCO does not say how or in what way the documentation is insufficient - thus

 

Quote

Can you please forward confirmation from your glass supplier that all relevant glazing complies with the above.

 

He is asking us to trawl through all the documentation from the supplier and map that onto the relevant Building Standards. 

 

Now call me old-fashioned, but should that task not have been done at Building Regs submission? Or the previous BCO? 

 

We've all got too little time. I have a strong feeling that I'm just going to get a bit of 2 by 4 and screw the damn thing onto the window frame (via a threaded sleeve or dowel screw) , get it signed off and then take the protection down.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by ToughButterCup

[craig]

Ask him to call or email me clarifying what he wants.

[ETC]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Really ? Of course you can. You might not get very far but you can.

I asked him for a concise problem statement ... and that appears to me to be (as above).

 

The statement is concise - but importantly NOT precise. 

Because, as @craig says he has sent the documentation from the manufacturer.

It might be too generic or the BCO cannot reconcile the information with the approved document.

 

But the BCO does not say how or in what way the documentation is insufficient - thus

He probably doesn’t know - unfortunately and is passing that buck straight back to you.

 

He is asking us to trawl through all the documentation from the supplier and map that onto the relevant Building Standards. Just send him an email. See my response below.

 

Now call me old-fashioned, but should that task not have been done at Building Regs submission? Or the previous BCO? No. Just because the requirement is on a drawing doesn’t mean it will be carried out on site.

 

We've all got too little time. I have a strong feeling that I'm just going to get a bit of 2 by 4 and screw the damn thing onto the window frame (via a threaded sleeve or dowel screw) , get it signed off and then take the protection down. You’re cutting off your nose to spite your face - You will also need infill panelling and something that looks temporary will be rejected. Plus removing guarding is dangerous and will more than likely cause you problems in the future .
 

I cannot believe a reputable glazing/window supplier would supply glass that doesn’t comply - rarely happens unless you’ve imported your glass from outside the EU so I think you’re safe enough.

I think you’re over complicating things and getting your knickers in a twist about something that can quite easily sorted. I also have a sneaky suspicion that either the BCO doesn’t understand what has been sent to him or her or that the information sent to him or her was generic technical information and didn’t tie up with the approved document.

 

It’s quite simple really - low-level FIXED glazing needs to be safety glass and low-level safety OPENABLE safety glass not only needs to be safety glass but also needs to prevent someone falling through it - there a couple of other caveats but that’s really as simple as it gets.

You or your glazing/window supplier have absolutely need to trawl through any documents.

 

@ToughButterCup - contact your glazing supplier and ask him/her to send you an email to say that the glazing installed at - insert full postal address - has been designed and supplied and fitted in accordance with Approved Document K.

 

Send this email onto your BCO. Your glazing/window supplier is an expert in this field and will know off the top of his head exactly what is required to be fitted in what area.

 

Your BCO doesn’t want generic standard technical information downloaded from the www - he or she wants a statement from the glazing/window for his file - the simpler the statement the better.

 

This is a standard procedure for many BCOs where it is not obvious from a site inspection that a pane of glass isn’t safety glass.

[craig]

You’re missing what is being said. I’am the supplier, the relevant documentation confirming relevant information “has” been supplied.

[ETC]

5 minutes ago, craig said:

You’re missing what is being said. I’am the supplier, the relevant documentation confirming relevant information “has” been supplied.

I fully understand that the information was sent by the supplier and that the BCO is now asking for more information and has quoted what he needs from the Approved Document verbatim.

 

He or she has done this because they are not able to reconcile what was sent with what is in the Approved Document - either they don’t understand the information sent or the information sent does not satisfy the requirement in the Approved Document.

 

Remember the old saying KISS - keep it simple - stupid. An email confirmation should satisfy the most misunderstanding BCO.

[Dave Jones]

sheet of ply screwed over the glass to 800mm above floor. pass inspection. remove ply and fill the screw holes.

 

end of drama.

[ETC]

8 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

sheet of ply screwed over the glass to 800mm above floor. pass inspection. remove ply and fill the screw holes.

 

end of drama.

Not in a million years would that pass!

[saveasteading]

I'm feeling oddly supportive of the BCO here.

He needs to know that nobody will fall out of the window. So use a barrier, or make it easy to be sure about the glass.....they can't know or remember everything and it isn't their job to research everything about every project...the fee doesn't cover that.

Neither is it their job to search every panel for sometimes obscure marking and to have the BS or Eurocode with them.

'Dear BCO the windows satisfy clause x because they are made of glass type y, which is deemed to satisfy under z.

The windows are etched with the evidence, see these photos, showing that they are to Eurocode a, and here also is the manufacturer's statement to confirm.

 

If that is not possible then there is a problem. and bco is right to not accept it.

 

If you choose, instead, to fit a barrier then it is easy to obtain an attractive grille, which could be an external panel such as for a deck, ie something that is attractive enough and not being contemptuous, and obviously temporary..

 

 

[craig]

Bottom line, BCO will be supplied with another email confirming glass conforms, documentation supplied again and specific calc performed and then he has nothing to cry about. 
 

He’s probably not that helpful because it’s in German but it’s clear from the certificate tbh, and he should know the EN codes.

Edited May 6, 2023 by craig

[Dave Jones]

14 hours ago, ETC said:

Not in a million years would that pass!

 

why ? It complies with regs.

[ETC]

It needs to be PERMANENT!

[ETC]

9 hours ago, craig said:

Bottom line, BCO will be supplied with another email confirming glass conforms, documentation supplied again and specific calc performed and then he has nothing to cry about. 
 

He’s probably not that helpful because it’s in German but it’s clear from the certificate tbh, and he should know the EN codes.

😂😂😂😂 In German and you expect him to accept it - says it all really! Why not go the whole hog and send him  it in Chinese as well.!

[craig]

Yes, I do expect him or her to accept it. The EN number is not in German and accepted by all BCOs up and down the country, a translated copy was also sent. I’m not 🤬 stupid.

[Dave Jones]

1 hour ago, ETC said:

It needs to be PERMANENT!

 

what's not permanent about it ? Is plasterboard screwed to wall not permanent? 

[ETC]

17 hours ago, Dave Jones said:

sheet of ply screwed over the glass to 800mm above floor. pass inspection. remove ply and fill the screw holes.

 

end of drama.

Screwing a piece of plywood to act as guarding and then removing after receiving the Completion Certificate is not only immoral but potentially dangerous. The Building Regulations exist for your protection and weren’t pulled out of someone’s ar*e.

 

Builders must think BCOs are as thick as champ!

[Dave Jones]

38 minutes ago, ETC said:

Screwing a piece of plywood to act as guarding and then removing after receiving the Completion Certificate is not only immoral but potentially dangerous. The Building Regulations exist for your protection and weren’t pulled out of someone’s ar*e.

 

Builders must think BCOs are as thick as champ!

 

Still waiting for why a structurally fixed lump of timber isn't permanent.

 

Regs do not say it has to be pretty.

 

[ETC]

I forgot to say - it’s also illegal.

[ETC]

13 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

Still waiting for why a structurally fixed lump of timber isn't permanent.

 

Regs do not say it has to be pretty.

 

If you’re going to remove it after receiving a Completion Certificates it’s not permanent.

 

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/permanent

Edited May 7, 2023 by ETC