ICF How much more expensive ?

[saveasteading]

19 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

there is no way timber frame is cheaper than brick and block.

A lot (all?) of the housing developers are wrong?

 

Savings come in speed and internal works.

Plumbing and electrics are through an open skeleton.

No chasing.

The internals can proceed before the outer skin.

Non load bearing stud is cheaper than block.

Etc.

 

Excluding the cost of time, there isn't so much in it.

Perhaps also depends a bit on the local cost and availability of decent bricklayers.

[Dave Jones]

yes of course if your finishing in under 12 weeks the extra cost may be worth it.

 

But tf is at least double the cost of brick and block so your table isnt right.

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

A lot (all?) of the housing developers are wrong

There is only one way, Dave's Way.

Don't question it unless you want to be belittled.

[Dave Jones]

how did i belittle you ?

 

Just pointing out your numbers don't stack up is all. 

 

Many pay the extra cost of TF not only for speed but its a turnkey to get watertight which is fine.

 

Cheapest it is not.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

how did i belittle you ?

[Dave Jones]

really lol! In that case today I'm identifying as a non-belittling person.

 

respect it !

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

tf is at least double the cost of brick and block so your table isnt right.

I have used every method of my table apart from ICF, which I tried to make work on a few projects. But that was as a professional.

The order changed according to dimensions, function, appearance.

 

Perhaps too a prejudice against brick, or the layers thereof.....if I could, then bricks were out.

 

As an amateur diy builder I think the order changes, esp according to skills. Few could do brickwork.

 

There's no bricks left.

When did you realise we were getting low?

There's no bricks left.

 

 

[Jenki]

11 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Has anybody suggested bolting your footings to the rock?

Depends on the depth of course, but there is little point in breaking out granite and replacing with concrete.

I'm sure when the final spec comes back from the certifier there will be rebar in the rock, I'm unsure how they think  around 45T of concrete can be blown of its foundation of rock but that's what they said, the detailing of the radon becomes more and more difficult 😔

[SteamyTea]

57 minutes ago, Jenki said:

the detailing of the radon becomes more and more difficult

Can you put a sump and air blower in?

[Jenki]

41 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Can you put a sump and air blower in?

It's only a low risk area so only require barrier, but rebar connections from footing to bedrock and footing to ICF mean I'll have to seal the barrier and rebar🙈

12 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Has anybody suggested bolting your footings to the rock?

Depends on the depth of course, but there is little point in breaking out granite and replacing with concrete.

I'm sure when the final spec comes back from the certifier there will be rebar in the rock, I'm unsure how they think  around 45T of concrete can be blown of its foundation of rock but that's what they said, the detailing of the radon becomes more and more difficult 😔

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Jenki said:

but rebar connections from footing to bedrock and footing to ICF mean I'll have to seal the barrier and rebar

An interesting engineering problem.

I wonder if you could cast/encapsulate the appropriate parts in an airtight resin.  I think radon barriers are thick polyethylene, which is a bugger to adhere to, but there is generally a way around joining dissimilar materials.

I am only thinking aloud, and not knowing the details it is hard to imagine the problem.  But it is only an engineering problem, and as Ken Tyrell said "An engineer is only someone that does for a penny what any damn fool can do for a quid".

[saveasteading]

10 hours ago, Jenki said:

I'm unsure how they think  around 45T of concrete can be blown of its foundation of rock 

It will be overturning rather than lift-off. 

Still seems wrong, but let's await your design.

I have seen rock being broken out for concrete. Not a design error, just rock encountered early and nobody stopping to think.

 

Radon barrier.   I expect there will be a stage where this will be easier than directly onto the rock. On top of hardcore probably, also acting as your dpm.

 

Direct venting, if necessary, would not require fans, just ventilation.....you have enough wind.

[Nic]

On 01/05/2023 at 17:42, JohnMo said:

Did it myself, with the wife as additional labour.

 

 

did you require rebar in this build ? 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Nic

[JohnMo]

Yes at each corner, above and to side of each opening and in middle of rear wall.  Your structural engineer needs to design the rebar. Every build is different. Loads of rebar in foundation also.

[Iceverge]

On 22/05/2023 at 09:58, JohnMo said:

Yes at each corner, above and to side of each opening and in middle of rear wall.  Your structural engineer needs to design the rebar. Every build is different. Loads of rebar in foundation also.

 

Resurrection of a dusty thread here. 

 

Do you have any sketches/snaps of the overall rebar quantities in your wall? I'm basing my ICF knowledge on EPS systems that seems to incorporate Yangtze dam levels of steel. 

 

Here's What's in my head.

 

 

[Russell griffiths]

The only steel in my nudura build was specifically aimed at constructing lintels above openings, none in any of the walls as specified by the SE. 
 

I did however put some in 😉

[Nick Laslett]

Thermohouse ICF wall rebar requirements. Horizontal bar every metre, vertical bar every metre. 
 

[Nick Laslett]

Top of walls after ground floor pour. 
 

[Nick Laslett]

Looking straight down a section of wall before pour. 
 

[JohnMo]

My rebar was limited to lintels at doorways and window plus vertically at doorways and a wind post rebar midway along back and end walls. So not much at all.

 

Lintel detail 

 

The wind post

[Russell griffiths]

The problem with icf over her is a lot of stuff is cut and pasted from American or Canadian regs. 
 

they have earth quakes and other severe weather, we get very few major weather incidents. 
 

my structural engineer said to me that you wouldn’t put re bar in a block built wall, so why is it needed in a concrete one with less joins. 
 

the only reason I see the need for reinforcement of a basic straight short wall would be if it was holding back a load, like a semi basement, or any roof load pushing outwards onto it. 

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

you wouldn’t put re bar in a block built wall, 

Because you can't. But in a hollow block wall you can, and fill with concrete, depending on the need of course. Hollow concrete aren't as strong as solids. Eps obviously isn't strong at all.  Don't reinvent the system.

[Nick Laslett]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

The problem with icf over her is a lot of stuff is cut and pasted from American or Canadian regs. 

My choice to go with Thermohouse ICF blocks was a combination of many factors. The roof and floor solution were a big part of it. The fact that at that time they would build the superstructure. This greatly simplified the whole build, one company would do the structural engineering, construct the house, engineer and install the steel work, the roof etc. For me this combined the advantages of a timber frame kit built, with the characteristics of ICF concrete walls.
 

I liked the fact that Thermohouse used the newer Neopor EPS technology from BASF. I even liked the origin story that Mike Cronin the owner of Thermohouse was looking for a way to utilise more concrete production from his main business, producing concrete. In Ireland they even recycle the EPS, because it is easy to ship it back to the factory. I believe that the Thermohouse system is licensed from and developed with BASF, so it is actually more Ireland focused in it’s attributes, to building regs compared to a lot of other ICF systems. 
 

I’m sorry if this sounds like I’m shilling for the company, but I had a genuinely positive experience on my build. If you are going down the ICF route, you need someone with good experience of the system you are going with. It looks simple, but there are a lot of small steps, that stop things like blowouts, bulging walls, etc. The bracing system brackets are an integral part of facilitating a good concrete wall pouring process as they create the platform you use whilst guiding the pump truck hose. They spent more time bracing my walls, than actually assembling them. 
 

Anyway, I could ramble for hours about ICF, I’ll stop now. 😉

[Iceverge]

I think I actually worked for a company that his company eventually bought, but that's neither here nor there!

 

Are those metal webs the same as the ones @Jenki has?

[Chanmenie]

My SE only specified rebar over openings as expected with my EPS blocks 

I did however put 90deg bends in the corners every other course, because I already had it as was originally going to use Isotex and the blurb from Italy said to put rebar in corners so the SE agreed.