UFH: Spacing between feed and return?

[oranjeboom]

Hi All, 

 

Been asked before I know....don't shoot me.  But didn't see a definitive answer.

 

So I have started laying the pipework for my 12 port manifold. Areas are getting pretty congested with the feed and return pipework.

As you can see from the pics, the WC room is worse than the M25 on a bank holiday. So it may get a bit warm in there...

 

Should I try and space them out equally and as mush as possible? What is the optimal min distance?

 

Or should I "just insulate every other pipe in the congested areas with 

9mm wall armorflex" a la @Nickfromwales? Only hesitation is I'm not sure whether I have sufficient room to insulate every other pipe. Also I'd need the slitted stuff which looks a bit pricey too. I also don't wanto end up with a very thick diameter as my concrete slab is only 100mm thick. Also, 16mm pipes are cable tied to A142 mesh.

 

I have some long feeds and return legs as well, and I am tempted maybe to leave 30-40mm between the pipes. I don't mind a bit of 'overheating' along the peripheries of some rooms (see entrance hall) as long as there are no implications for the concrete slab.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

OB

Edited August 4, 2017 by oranjeboom

[PeterW]

A WC is an extracted room for MVHR so whilst it may get a bit warm it should be fine. 

 

You could go via your cloakroom on that picture - is that where the manifold is ..? 

 

This was mine - got as close as I could using the stick on pipe rails. I've got some spare if you want them ..?

 

[MikeSharp01]

Just one thought, which I am sure you have thought through, in the WC pipework you have the heat / pipe under the pan and most pans are fixed down with screws so extra care needed when drilling the fixing holes! An alternative, given the other pipework in the room as @PeterW says heating the WC area, you could delete that section of the loop or at least ensure no pipework is anywhere near where a drill might be used to fix down the pan.

Edited August 5, 2017 by MikeSharp01
Added '/ pipe'

[Triassic]

If the WC is congested you could route the right hand set of feed and returns under the door of the cloakroom.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Triassic

[oranjeboom]

20 minutes ago, PeterW said:

You could go via your cloakroom on that picture - is that where the manifold is ..? 

 

This was mine - got as close as I could using the stick on pipe rails. I've got some spare if you want them ..?

 

Bit of a strange one...Wunda screwed up with their plans. My intended location for the manifold was in one of the hallway cupboards and despite me sending them scaled drawings in was only much later that they admitted the manifold would be too big to fit their. So I had to come up with another central-ish location. Cloakroom still has the old slab in situ, so I have had to conduit the pipework through the base of the wall/slab floor and up the wall to where the manifold is now located.

 

Thanks for the piperails, but I've got the mesh in place already, but can use the pipe rail spacing as a guide then.Is that approx 25mm spacing?

 

15 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Just one thought, which I am sure you have thought through, in the WC pipework you have the heat / pipe under the pan and most pans are fixed down with screws so extra care needed when drilling the fixing holes! An alternative, given the other pipework in the room as @PeterW says heating the WC area, you could delete that section of the loop or at least ensure no pipework is anywhere near where a drill might be used to fix down the pan.

 

Hi Mike, yes, I was suddenly forced to start looking at toilet options/designs and started looking for templates as to where exactly the screw holes would go. I then tried a few layouts when I was laying the pipe and rather risk anything, I have opted to go for a wall hung toilet. A bit more expensive but easier for me right now! And it's a small room, so a wall hung will hopefully make it appear a bit larger. I've always wanted a urinal actually, but the boss doesn't like that idea, despite there being a WC next door in the bathroom.

 

15 minutes ago, Triassic said:

If the WC is congested you could route the right hand set of feed and returns under the door of the cloakroom.

Not an option here, as the slab is in situ in this room. Was intended as a 'cool room' at some point - but not any more with the manifold in there. It's also got on of the walls built on top of slab, so not touching the slab!

[Grosey]

Here's mine, congested yes. Note I only added a bit of Insulation lagging as a suggestion from the liquid screed guy to buy myself a little bit of play when I adjust the position of the manifold / board. 

[oranjeboom]

10 minutes ago, Grosey said:

Here's mine, congested yes. Note I only added a bit of Insulation lagging as a suggestion from the liquid screed guy to buy myself a little bit of play when I adjust the position of the manifold / board. 

Thanks for the pics. Mine is beginning to look like that now. Good to see you had plenty of help there though!

[bassanclan]

How wide is the clks?

How wide is your manifold when fully constructed?

 

Personally I would dig up the slab in the clks and put the manifold on the wall at the bottom of your diagram, this would make the clks congested/overheated, but probably better that than an internal wc.

 

Also I would not worry about going to the extra effort of a wall hung wc (unless you want one) just glue it down with a good bead of silicone/ct1 etc and it won't go anywhere.

[Onoff]

I've got one of these Polypipe panels spare (plus a few off cuts) if that would help space things:

 

https://www.tdlonline.co.uk/Heating/Polypipe-Underfloor-Heating/Polypipe-Solid-Floor/4100-/Polypipe-Floor-Panel-12m-x-1m-PB08576

[oranjeboom]

19 minutes ago, bassanclan said:

How wide is the clks?

How wide is your manifold when fully constructed?

 

Personally I would dig up the slab in the clks and put the manifold on the wall at the bottom of your diagram, this would make the clks congested/overheated, but probably better that than an internal wc.

 

Also I would not worry about going to the extra effort of a wall hung wc (unless you want one) just glue it down with a good bead of silicone/ct1 etc and it won't go anywhere.

All too late. Cloakroom is the only room that has not had the original slab removed -  with wall on slab. I'm halfway through putting the pipework in and the manifold ain't movin'! I was seriously peed off that Wunda screwed up with their inability to realise that their manifold (circa 1000mm)  would be too big for my 850mm hall cupboard. So what I have now is as good as it gets locations. 

 

It's all looking a bit like I've dropped a giant's plate of spaghetti in that room at the moment. Pic to follow. Better start labelling those pipes before I forget....

 

 

2 minutes ago, Onoff said:

I've got one of these Polypipe panels spare (plus a few off cuts) if that would help space things:

 

https://www.tdlonline.co.uk/Heating/Polypipe-Underfloor-Heating/Polypipe-Solid-Floor/4100-/Polypipe-Floor-Panel-12m-x-1m-PB08576

 

Thanks, but I'm 1/2 way there now. I don't think the panel would actually fit this particular space in the WC. I have 24 pipes fighting for space.

[PeterW]

Spacers may help - have sent you a PM

[Onoff]

100mm minimum with these panels:

 

 

You can cut them into strips if it helps elsewhere, I used the multitool:

 

 

Think I said elsewhere they are only about 30mm thick but that gets taken out of the 100mm slab depth and each "bulge" is about 90mm dia. 

 

 

Tbh with so many pipes that close together I don't think I'd want to compromise the slab there in the bathroom in any way. 

 

Going thru the cloak and out that door gets my vote, you'd halve your problems.

[bassanclan]

You'll probably find the track mentioned by @PeterW useful then.

Don't delay in labelling your pipes and obviously keep them together.

[oranjeboom]

Thanks for the replies.

 

The panels won't work as the doorway is only circa 800mm with the panel being 1000mm. Obviously it can be cut, but if the pipe spacing is 100mm that would mean I need to have a a panel length 24000 wide to accommodate my 24pipes. And I also want to place the pipes midway in the concrete slab, not on the bottom. I could place the panel on top of the elevated mesh, but I'd have to ensure the concrete gets underneath the panel also.

 

A pipe spacer/rail may work as the spacing is less than 100mm apart. But measuring and carefully spacing the pipes apart means I may end up with 36mm between pipes and tightly tying them to the mesh. With 40mm of concrete above and below the pipework (as well as in between) I don't think this is going to case any structural issues.

 

Just 4 circuits to go when I get back from the mother-in-laws....if I survive 'sunny' Wales....

 

I'll have more questions when the time comes to set up the manifold!