Rethinking the mindset for mass retrofit - a provocative idea

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

may be the exception. never experienced any putting our 3 through school. Just young kids who went to collage, learned to teach then back to school with zero life experience.

 

My career in brief: Army > Sports administration and training > International trade (East / West Berlin) > Teaching (Y1, 2, 3, 4) > University Lecturer to train undergraduate and post graduate teachers and research ... 

 

The very best teachers I have ever met (and trained) have all been direct entrants to the job - maybe 30 or 40 individuals overall.

 

After I retired the teaching recruitment system changed - no need for a degree anymore. Just a willingness to do what the Head teacher wants.

 

Because the market knew best. Well, the market is now voting with its feet. Potential recruits go elsewhere.

 

 

[SteamyTea]

21 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

After I retired the teaching recruitment system changed - no need for a degree anymore. Just a willingness to do what the Head teacher

When did that change?

When I did my PGCE one needed a degree, though the Cert. Ed was still an option.

The PGCE has now been renamed to Master I am told (level 5). Though I am a bit out of touch with the industry now.

 

[saveasteading]

46 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

from age 13/14 trade routes should be offered as a replacement for everything but maths/english for those who are not uni material

I did buildings for a couple of schools where I got to know the senior staff well.

One officially did trades, such as catering, hair, nails, plumbing, brickwork. These kids mostly learned admin skills eg scheduling meal ingredients, then costing them. 

They still did some formal classes and I gather took them more seriously because they realised the importance.

In another school they did not have this setup  but some lads were allowed to disappear to an onsite garage and fiddle with an old car.....the alternative being disruption or  truancy. That was stopped in handing over to an academy....as were sport, music and theatre.

 

I also did a maths practical in every school. Just how much concrete do I order for the floor slab.   

A x b x c = d  m3

 

The decimal point was the main issue in the top set.

Sums for the rest.

 

We seldom got to question 2 in an hour.

How many lorries of 6m3 capacity will be needed?

 

Shocking really. 

But the teachers said it was very worthwhile, esp that I said I used arithmetic all day, every day.

 

The most satisfying was a very special needs kid, with 2 staff. We did colouring. But this lad asked a very astute question about why was there a piece of wood in a steel frame (temp prop). He saw it as interesting but the teachers proposed it as a silly question.

 

I approve of skill and trade classes. 

[SteamyTea]

I am not sure we should be expecting kids to choose future employment at 13 years of age.

At least in the public school system you have 3 choices.

Family Business

Forces

Prison

 

Not always in that order.

[saveasteading]

5 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

am not sure we should be expecting kids to choose future employment at 13 years of age.

No, but learning something better than not. Actually the schools I mentioned it was 16+ for these activities.

We took on an apprentice and he changed trade twice once he saw the real jobs on sites. Ended up OK.

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Ended up OK

So did I

But still not sure which I prefer.

[markocosic]

5 hours ago, JamesPa said:

All agreed, so long as nobody (kitchen fitters included) are excluded.  Aptitude is all that should matter, not history/age.   Targeting and exclusion are two different things.  

 

I didn't suggest preventing anybody from doing this.

 

I do however suggest that there isn't athe army of well suited individuals that you seem to suggest there is within the domestic plumbing sector; and that the reason for this is that job attracted the wrong skillset/mindset to be doing anything new that involves much thinking.

 

Target those who will bring best bank for the buck. Smarter. Younger. Hungrier.

 

Others are welcome to retrain but don't build into your plan the assumption that blue van man will be the ones to save the day.

[markocosic]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Though I am a bit out of touch with the industry now.

 

I graduated 2008 (engineer)

 

Every single teacher that graduated alongside me has quit the profession or gone private.

 

Couldn't stand licking the backsides of their (union) heads.

[JamesPa]

48 minutes ago, markocosic said:

I do however suggest that there isn't athe army of well suited individuals that you seem to suggest there is within the domestic plumbing sector; and that the reason for this is that job attracted the wrong skillset/mindset to be doing anything new that involves much thinking.

 

Perhaps.  As long as the market is open to anyone then whatever is the best that can happen, will happen.

 

48 minutes ago, markocosic said:

Target those who will bring best bank for the buck. Smarter. Younger. Hungrier.

 

Hungrier certainly, the baby boomers have conspired to ensure that is the case.  Younger obviously, but shouldn't be a criterion.  Smarter, not sure there is any evidence for that (sadly).  

 

I hope we can agree that, so long as anyone can apply on an equal footing then we get the best we can get.

[JamesPa]

4 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

4 hours ago, JamesPa said:

 

Quote

 

For a certification scheme’s notifications to be considered equivalent and suitable to generate credits towards the CHMM, it would need to demonstrate, at minimum:

• That both the product installed and the installation itself comply with industry best practice, product standards and relevant building regulations;

• Appropriate certification procedures, including proportionate assessment and audit of installers and installations;

• Appropriate accreditation by the United Kingdom Accreditation Service (UKAS) (e.g. to ISO 17065);

• Robust protections to ensure that work which does not meet scheme standards is put right promptly, with clear guidance on the expected conduct of installers and an effective investigations and complaints process;

• An ability and willingness to collect and provide the data required by the CHMM

 

Expand  

 

Looks clear enough to me and it must apply everywhere because it points up what MCS must do and MCS does it. Have a look here: https://mcscertified.com/installers-manufacturers/becoming-certified/ It is very much a close shop there but any other body could set up to do the same thing and be able to certify.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1146981/clean_heat_market_mechanism.pdf

 

I agree, on reflection, with @MikeSharp01

 

The proposals have to potential to create serious market distortion at year end if other organisations don't step in.  Good luck to any self builder or anyone who doesn't want to use MCS if manufacturers have shortages of supply,  They will simply refuse to sell to anyone who doesn't get them a credit.

[Roger440]

10 hours ago, JamesPa said:

Yes, but lets find out if there is general agreement, which for a while there appeared to be, or two factions, which it appears more recently may be the case.  Hence why I asked:

 

@SimonD , @Roger440do you at least agree (as I and many others appear to) with @markocosicon the above quote, if you do then there is actually a remarkable level of consensus, if you don't then there are probably two distinct factions.

 

I never disagreed.

 

I think the problem is you dont read what i wrote, but what you think i wrote.

[Roger440]

11 hours ago, MikeSharp01 said:

Not sure this will do it. We need a better technical education system, properly invested in AND to change mindset about what is and what is not an acceptable profession for "middle Englands" (all other UK territories also) children. 

 

The message is, if you are going to do practical work you are a failure. It was when i was at school in the 80's, and its much worse now once Blair got the whole "you must have a degree" bandwagon rolling.

 

The single best thing i ever did was ignore everyone and get a proper apprenticship.

 

Sadly, even now, if you are just coming out of school, where are those proper apprenticeships that give a good engineering grounding. I dont know of any outside the MOD. Just watered down training schemes to get you earning money for the employer double quick. Usually focused on a very narrow range of tasks. Which of course increases the chances of staying tied to the employer.

 

Even if this mindset changed tommorow, it will be 10 years plus before we see the benefit.

 

The message today still is, if you go into a trade, you have failed. And the industry training schemes seem to focus on those that have failed acedemically.

 

Thats why we are where we are, and why the fabled 1.4 million heatpumps wont happen.

 

[JamesPa]

37 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

I never disagreed.

 

I think the problem is you dont read what i wrote, but what you think i wrote.

I didn't say you disagreed, nor did I say you agreed.   If I thought you had done either I wouldn't have asked the question - which incidentally I don't think you have answered.

[RichardL]

7 hours ago, Roger440 said:

...got the whole "you must have a degree" bandwagon rolling

I hate this must have a degree thing. - there should be balance.

While I'm in a so called professional desk job my late Dad was a Joiner, his Dad and brother bricklayers. He did an apprenticeship back in the day then ran the small family building firm.

 

7 hours ago, Roger440 said:

The message is, if you are going to do practical work you are a failure

I always have the utmost respect for those that do - and try to learn what I can from them be it kitchen fitters, sparks or chipys, roof fitters etc. I certainly can't do what they do well enough and quickly enough to earn a living!

That should be a thing in society - right to the top.

The attitude must not be those that can't degree take up a trade - but absolute equivalence and respect for that path in life.

(Sorry triggered my hobby horse there )

Edited May 2, 2023 by RichardL

[MikeSharp01]

14 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Sadly, even now, if you are just coming out of school, where are those proper apprenticeships that give a good engineering grounding. I dont know of any outside the MOD.

There are loads of them at graduate level anyway. I am involved with three of them in Engineering across a range of large corporations and SMEs. The students need good A levels including Maths and the ones I know work very hard and are very capable.

[Roger440]

6 hours ago, RichardL said:

I hate this must have a degree thing. - there should be balance.

While I'm in a so called professional desk job my late Dad was a Joiner, his Dad and brother bricklayers. He did an apprenticeship back in the day then ran the small family building firm.

 

I always have the utmost respect for those that do - and try to learn what I can from them be it kitchen fitters, sparks or chipys, roof fitters etc. I certainly can't do what they do well enough and quickly enough to earn a living!

That should be a thing in society - right to the top.

The attitude must not be those that can't degree take up a trade - but absolute equivalence and respect for that path in life.

(Sorry triggered my hobby horse there )

 

Its one of mine too!

 

The good news is, out in the real world, the penny is starting to drop. Plenty of youngsters doing degrees coming out of university, saddled with debt and unable to find a worthwhile job. While there school mates are a few years ahead, earning good money and have no debt because they chose to lean a skill. In a lot of cases  those with debt and later into the jobs market will never recover that gap.

 

Thats not going unnoticed for them

 

However, nothing changed that i can see in the mantra, "degree is good" everything else is bad message from government and education types. 

 

Thats before we consider the diminished vale of a degree as a consequence of the past 20 years or so. It was so obvious what has happened would happen.

 

But it seems those making the rules seem to be totally incapable of imagning he effects of the changes they make. I dont know why, because its not hard. Which brings us back on track, because Jamespa doesnt seem to be able to grasp the motivation element that inevitably going to be required for the various paties involved with his proposals. 

 

As a wise person said to me a long time ago, people will respond to the motivations they recieve, motivate people to do the wrong thing, and they will do just that.

 

Low profit/ high risk jobs will not motivate the kind of people you need. Ie, competent people with real long term businesses with reputations. Protest to the contrary are just deluding oneself.

 

[Roger440]

Just now, MikeSharp01 said:

There are loads of them at graduate level anyway. I am involved with three of them in Engineering across a range of large corporations and SMEs. The students need good A levels including Maths and the ones I know work very hard and are very capable.

 

Id love to see what they consist of. Being at gradute level wasnt really what i meant, nor did myself. 

 

There was bugger all chance of me achieving A level maths, barely managed O level. So by that, id have been excluded and consigned to the scrapheap from day 1. Fortunately for me, the country had not reached that level of daft at the time i was in school.

[SteamyTea]

7 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Thats before we consider the diminished vale of a degree as a consequence of the past 20 years or so.

Are you claiming that Degree level education follows the normal market supply and demand curve?

[markocosic]

1 hour ago, Roger440 said:

But it seems those making the rules seem to be totally incapable of imagning he effects of the changes they make. I dont know why, because its not hard

 

Really?

 

Blair junior is doing very well indeed by offering box ticking as a service service at multiverse. 

 

I'd say those making up the rules knew exactly what they were doing. 😉

[markocosic]

15 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Sadly, even now, if you are just coming out of school, where are those proper apprenticeships that give a good engineering grounding.

 

YouTube?

 

It used to be the case that you needed to go to college to find people to teach you things.

 

There's now an astonishing amount of decent content online and free of charge; such that you don't necessarily need local college.

 

(in amongst the facepalm, instashame, and tittok type garbage)

 

Certain manufacturer provided training is also very good and often available free of charge.

 

They lack the structure of an apprenticeship though; so you probably need a job as a lackey for somebody decent to look and learn whilst also getting paid and watching YouTube in the spare time.

 

This is good for trades I think. Where it falls down is engineering technicians to run CNC machine tools or layup composite components or run a pharma lab. 

 

Some of the larger companies do hire apprentices and pay the "apprenticeship tax" indirectly of having to jump through hoops. 

 

The rest hire graduates from a "university" that screams "I ought to have gone to the local polytechnic but it doesn't exist anymore so I've wasted 3 years and £150k to highlight that I'd be a trainable hire as an apprentice engineering technician" etc. Which is a tragic waste for them. Those companies also pay the "apprenticeship tax" for not dealing with the BS of the apprenticeship system and paying somebody like Blair to tick all the boxes for them such that they can claim the scheme as a legit tax deductible thing. A tragic waste for them too.

[markocosic]

20 hours ago, JamesPa said:

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1146981/clean_heat_market_mechanism.pdf

 

I agree, on reflection, with @MikeSharp01

 

The proposals have to potential to create serious market distortion at year end if other organisations don't step in.  Good luck to any self builder or anyone who doesn't want to use MCS if manufacturers have shortages of supply,  They will simply refuse to sell to anyone who doesn't get them a credit.

 

Are you at all surprised that the union is writing itself into being mandatory everywhere? Pigs at the trough; with big corporate friends helping them design the schemes to fill it with the help of government.

 

I doubt anybody else will step in because:

 

- the level of scrutiny for a new scheme will exceed that of the MCS (you'll be tasked with proving yourself; whereas the failure that is MCS is deemed to deliver good results / it's use isn't in question)

 

- in the long term the scheme is dead anyway (market forces will kill it off as an unnecessary overhead just as soon as the government grant gravy train/pig trough runs dry)

 

- manufacturers won't want to get involved with running their own scheme as they have too many real assets to lose (whereas it isn't worth rinsing the "charitable" MCS because through the courts as it has no asset to speak of)

 

Shortages of supply shouldn't be an issue.

 

This particular scheme is an indirect "boiler tax" that impacts the cost of selling a boiler into the domestic market.

 

So long as there are vendors that only do heat pumps they'll not be incentivised to divert supply to the union installers.

[JamesPa]

11 minutes ago, markocosic said:

 

- in the long term the scheme is dead anyway (market forces will kill it off as an unnecessary overhead just as soon as the government grant gravy train/pig trough runs dry)

I hope you are right about this, seriously.

 

But the pv market remains tied to mcs years after subsidies ceased, and currently the mcs guys are reluctant to install panels without batteries because batteries are where the margins are.  How certain are you that the hp market won't suffer the same fate.  The latest consultation says nothing about relaxing the pd rules and until this happens mcs has a pretty secure grip.

 

 

[Dillsue]

11 minutes ago, JamesPa said:

But the pv market remains tied to mcs years after subsidies ceased

?? Anyone can install PV. You just need a spark to test site installed cabling

[markocosic]

I don't know the timetable @JamesPa

 

The country may need to go truly broke (cashflow broke not just balance sheet broke) before reality sets in.

 

This could be a fun event for those wishing to stir the pot FWIW:

 

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/heat-pumps-the-1st-million-a-participant-led-conference-1stmillionhp-tickets-529436196917

[Dillsue]

For heat pump install, MCS doesnt have a secure grip. It's a few hundred quid for a planning application out of a suggested £5k install cost. No MCS involvement. Just your friendly spark thats testing your PV cables

Edited May 2, 2023 by Dillsue