James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) Hi all, We are renovating a house we have bought in London (NW5). At the time, we thought we paid a respectable price for it (£600,000), but renovation costs are taking us WAY over our worst case scenario (£1,200,000). We have also paid architects to draw up the designs (£50,000 including VAT), so that is a significant additional cost (I realise that a mistake was probably made here in how premium we went). The house is 1300 square foot, or 122 square metres. We estimate the house would be worth around £1,300,000 once renovated. I have attached a Rightmove link to showcase the condition it is in (bad): https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/114544205#/?channel=RES_BUY My sense is this quote is outrageously high (even with the current inflationary trend in mind), but I am interested to hear where in particular the costs are outrageously high. Any insights would be massively appreciated. According to this quote, we would end up spending around £1,350,000-£1,400,000 on the house, which given the amount of effort and the starting price (which seems very fair), means we must have f***** up badly somewhere along the way. In addition, we are subject to the 5% VAT rule, which we initially thought gave us further mitigation with financial risk (alongside the starting price). The context also adds an additional layer as the building company is run by a friend of mine, who has assured me that he will take a lower profit margin that usual (i.e. mates rates). His company is premium, but he has worked on a number of friends' houses and I know he would do an amazing job. However, the pricing is so far above where I would expect it to be, that I am having doubts about if it is feasible to continue with them. If anyone has any insights into the quote (attached), it would be incredibly valuable. Thank you so much for any wisdom / guidance 🙏 James 1Modbury Gardens - Cost Plan R0.pdf Edited March 20, 2023 by James Frome 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattg4321 Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 17k for a staircase to the loft? 2.6k for carpet in the loft? I know this is London but wtf. Some of those figures seem way out there unless you’re going seriously high spec. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canski Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 The decorator must think he’s won the lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 Ok so is the estimate of the future value of the house £1.3m based upon renovating and extending it at very top spec, or not. Footballers wives etc. What would the house value be worth if extended and renovated to a decent spec. what have local estate agents advised you. some things are minimum requirements to increase value. Size/rooms etc. but somethings just won’t increase any value that much. Have you over specced. nobody’s suggesting putting in a £2k ikea kitchen of course but holy crap that’s an incredible budget to renovate & extend a small house. I know London is expensive but holy crap some of those quotes are obscene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miike Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 £35.1k for new stairs, £17.6k for an ASHP on a 122m2 house that's (presumably) already hooked up to gas 😬 Maybe there was a miscommunication about what 'mates rates' means, and you're actually paying him a lot extra to help out his company's profits, rather than the other way around. Why don't you tell him what your actual budget is and ask if he can advise on what changes you'd need to make to get it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 London rates I guess but that is dear. Not sure how you get to some of the amounts. Different World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 45 minutes ago, James Frome said: ... a lower profit margin that usual (i.e. mates rates) Here be dragons. Big nasty dragons, and oceans of tears. The sums of money involved in this case are not to be sniffed at. Unless your friend has worked for you before, and you have come to know and trust his judgement and practice, may I suggest you do not employ him? Professional distance is what is needed here. Ask your mate for confidential advice, contacts, his judgment about other companies you employ: but don't employ him. All too often we hear of mates rates relationships which have gone wrong, and in my case that has happened twice. And in this case, re-read @miike , @Bozza , @Canski , @Mattg4321 hint at above. The warning signs are already there. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenki Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 All of the above. But 50k plus vat to draw a building that's already there FFS. I think you know the answer to your question. Put some tenders out and get some real prices to compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 This is all incredibly helpful so far. I really appreciate the feedback and the guidance. We are reading your thoughts carefully and reflectively. In terms of the value of the house, it would be around £1,300,000 with medium spec. The average price per square metre on the street is £10,000 but this may have gone down with the recent movements in the property market. We told him our budget was £550,000 including VAT (taking the total cost including architect fees, stamp duty etc. to £1,150,000). I think we are going medium / medium high spec (but please tell me given the below). With the size of the house at 122 square metres, this would allow £4500 per square metre. We are only going medium / medium high spec as we plan on living in the house for the rest of our lives (in theory!). We don't, however, want to be doing this at the risk of paying it off for the rest of our lives! Some links below of items (please tell me where this sits on the spec level?): - https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/milano-elizabeth-brushed-gold-traditional-thermostatic-shower-with-wall-mounted-shower-head-1-outlet-86281 - https://www.lussostone.com/taps-c3/celeste-2-hole-traditional-kitchen-tap-brushed-gold-p4675 - https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/milano-elizabeth-traditional-wall-mounted-crosshead-3-tap-hole-basin-mixer-tap-choice-of-finish-82086 The kitchen is largely British Standard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 2 minutes ago, Jenki said: All of the above. But 50k plus vat to draw a building that's already there FFS. I think you know the answer to your question. Put some tenders out and get some real prices to compare. I completely agree. We f***** up here. It was 42k plus VAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 15 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said: Here be dragons. Big nasty dragons, and oceans of tears. The sums of money involved in this case are not to be sniffed at. Unless your friend has worked for you before, and you have come to know and trust his judgement and practice, may I suggest you do not employ him? Professional distance is what is needed here. Ask your mate for confidential advice, contacts, his judgment about other companies you employ: but don't employ him. All too often we hear of mates rates relationships which have gone wrong, and in my case that has happened twice. And in this case, re-read @miike , @Bozza , @Canski , @Mattg4321 hint at above. The warning signs are already there. I appreciate this - I agree, this is a big warning sign and one to be listened to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 27 minutes ago, miike said: £35.1k for new stairs, £17.6k for an ASHP on a 122m2 house that's (presumably) already hooked up to gas 😬 Maybe there was a miscommunication about what 'mates rates' means, and you're actually paying him a lot extra to help out his company's profits, rather than the other way around. Why don't you tell him what your actual budget is and ask if he can advise on what changes you'd need to make to get it there. The house is hooked up to gas. My concern is now that we could probably get within budget together, but to see a quote like this puts me on the defence - it certainly doesn't seem like mates rates, and to come in with a quote like this is so far from being mates rates that it is quite offensive. It is hard to win back that trust now (even if he is just giving us a worst case scenario, which he isn't!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 37 minutes ago, Bozza said: Ok so is the estimate of the future value of the house £1.3m based upon renovating and extending it at very top spec, or not. Footballers wives etc. What would the house value be worth if extended and renovated to a decent spec. what have local estate agents advised you. some things are minimum requirements to increase value. Size/rooms etc. but somethings just won’t increase any value that much. Have you over specced. nobody’s suggesting putting in a £2k ikea kitchen of course but holy crap that’s an incredible budget to renovate & extend a small house. I know London is expensive but holy crap some of those quotes are obscene. It is £1.3m based on moderate spec. I think it is a law of diminishing returns with spec as it is a maisonette with a basement flat underneath. I think we haven't held back with the spec, but we haven't been outrageous (please counter me on this with my links if you disagree). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, Jenki said: All of the above. But 50k plus vat to draw a building that's already there FFS. I think you know the answer to your question. Put some tenders out and get some real prices to compare. I agree - next step is to get some other tenders. It is a bit of a game out there with tenders (as in - is the tender authentic or designed to hook you in), but nevertheless, seems like a wise next move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 £11,700 for “utility appliances”..?? Decoration is £20k tops, inc inside and out window cleaner is paid in gold I assume at £335, and cleaning a full house is not £2600… Most (all..?) of your Price Sums are double a reasonable price, and given the whole thing is being ripped to bits then the £19k rewire must be using gold plated unobtainium cables … UFH in a house this size off an ASHP with 40mm of cork on the walls will give you electricity bills that make Credit Suisse squeal.. That is a £300k all in job, with decent finishes, that even with the silly London premium should come in £425k max. He’s having your pants down and your shirt off .. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesP Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 What a lovely maisonette in NW5. Just looked at the Architects website and is indeed hi spec / finish and a price to match, 5 to 6K sqm. In South London I would expect to pay half that. Its a London Ting. BTW your Cost Plan PDF is readable, hence looking at your architects site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, James Frome said: think we haven't held back with the spec, but we haven't been outrageous £46k for a kitchen and utility in a 2 bed maisonette..? I spent £35k all in on a £2.4m 6 bed house with a 35sqm kitchen and that was Miele appliances and custom built… those taps are fairly cheap and rebadged no name stuff, you need to be buying quality where you touch it and that’s taps and handles etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowhawk Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, James Frome said: I think we are going medium / medium high spec [...] Some links below of items (please tell me where this sits on the spec level?): - https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/milano-elizabeth-brushed-gold-traditional-thermostatic-shower-with-wall-mounted-shower-head-1-outlet-86281 - https://www.lussostone.com/taps-c3/celeste-2-hole-traditional-kitchen-tap-brushed-gold-p4675 - https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/milano-elizabeth-traditional-wall-mounted-crosshead-3-tap-hole-basin-mixer-tap-choice-of-finish-82086 Spec bands are relative so hard to say. You could get cheaper by getting items that'll do the same from Screwfix and upgrade later, but these 3 don't seem medium spec to me. They want to look like medium spec but in 5 years time I doubt they will feel it. Living on the edge of a forest that's New in Hampshire I understand all too well about price inflation! But as others have said your prices are way beyond what I'd expect a medium spec to be in London. Perhaps digging into the costs for Guy Hargreaves' project in Oxford - with restricted access for work plus a bigger house - will give you an idea of what you can get for the money: https://www.houseplanninghelp.com/hph322-an-enerphit-standard-retrofit-of-a-victorian-mid-terrace-home-with-guy-hargreaves/ Edited March 20, 2023 by Sparrowhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said: Spec bands are relative so hard to say. You could get cheaper by getting items that'll do the same from Screwfix and upgrade later, but these 3 don't seem medium spec to me. They want to look like medium spec but in 5 years time I doubt they will feel it. Living on the edge of a forest that's New in Hampshire I understand all too well about price inflation! But as others have said your prices are beyond what I'd expect a medium spec to be in London. Thanks Sparrowhawk - what spec would you say the links I provided are? Edited March 20, 2023 by James Frome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozza Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 you don’t need ASHP it won’t work well in an old house, stick with mains gas. @PeterW has hit nail on head with his post. I get trades will be more expensive in London but ultimately material prices won’t be, and it is not a huge house. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowhawk Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, James Frome said: What spec would you say these are? Wanna-be mid-range for people who want the look without spending the money. Nothing wrong with that but with the prices & fit & finish promised for this renovation they aren't up there. These are more what I'd call medium spec: https://www.astonmatthews.co.uk/axis-3-hole-deck-mounted-basin-mixer-and-pop-up-waste-scuffed-brass Edited March 20, 2023 by Sparrowhawk typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Bozza said: you don’t need ASHP it won’t work well in an old house, stick with mains gas. @PeterW has hit nail on head with his post. I get trades will be more expensive in London but ultimately material prices won’t be, and it is not a huge house. The current plan is to make the house ASHP ready but not actually install the ASHP. Edited March 20, 2023 by James Frome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Frome Posted March 20, 2023 Author Share Posted March 20, 2023 6 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said: Wanna-be mid-range for people who want the look without spending the money. Nothing wrong with that but with the prices & fit & finish promised for this renovation they aren't up there. These are more what I'd call medium spec: https://www.astonmatthews.co.uk/axis-3-hole-deck-mounted-basin-mixer-and-pop-up-waste-scuffed-brass Ok. Good to know we are not being exorbitant with the spec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowhawk Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 1 minute ago, James Frome said: The current plan is to make the house ASHP ready but not actually install the ASHP. We have been advised to not install gas and just run everything off electricity. Thoughts on this? Has your architect done thermal modelling of the property in that fee? Are there heat loss calculations for the property? What difference is the "40mm Ty Mawr Cork Insulation on external walls" making to the thermal efficiency? Once you know that you are in a better position to make that decision based on annual heating costs. Without an ASHP and in an all-electric house you'll be relying on an electric boiler to power the UFH? Personally I'd go gas at this point, in spite of the connection and later disconnection fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparrowhawk Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 Have you had an asbestos survey done and do you have contingency for any "little surprises" that turn up during demolition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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