Committee decision - attend or not?

[Drellingore]

3 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

I'm not sure that's universally true

 

This certainly seems to be universally true of the planning system - it's so complicated and inefficient because nothing is universally true! As a programmer and someone who streamlined processes for a living, it's rather flabbergasting.

[Big Jimbo]

1 minute ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

I'm not sure that's universally true Jim.

For example our LPA has publicly said that they no longer take PC feedback into account. 

Tough, thats true. Some councils get so sick of the local Parish Council that they no longer take there comments into account. All councils should do this IMO, so that p.c's comments have no more effect than a neighbours. I would not allow P.C's to vote on any planning applications. Nimby's, old duffers. Zero training.

[Big Jimbo]

1 minute ago, Drellingore said:

 

This certainly seems to be universally true of the planning system - it's so complicated and inefficient because nothing is universally true! As a programmer and someone who streamlined processes for a living, it's rather flabbergasting.

The planning system is broken. NPPF written badly, Local policies written badly. Bods with zero training getting to decide........

[ToughButterCup]

1 minute ago, Drellingore said:

...

inefficient because nothing is universally true!

....

 

and that's the core reason to present yourself as superbly-well prepared for your meeting.

In command of

• the local agenda - the local micropolitics
• the Council micorpolitics
• a detailed understanding of all recent similar or related cases handled by the Officer concerned

- another way of saying, quit the day job and focus on your Planning Application.

 

My OH supervises PhDs.

"For non-specialists, getting Planning Permission and building a house on your own is as demanding as any PhD"

[Drellingore]

Any suggestions on how to approach the councillor for the ward? Is it generally the 'done thing' to just email, explain all about us and the development, and ask if it's a development that they can support?

[Big Jimbo]

You can normally find the email, and sometimes a telephone number published on the council web site. I would try ringing them. Do you have somebody acting on your behalf ? If you could find out why the planning officer is not going to support your application it might be helpful for the planning meeting.

[Pocster]

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

- another way of saying, quit the day job and focus on your Planning Application.

This is what I did . All the refusals , bs etc. It became a full time occupation. At one point I had 130 neighbor reasons to refuse the application. (expletive deleted) 

[Drellingore]

 I sold my IT consultancy and so have been 'funemployed' since May  Which does beggar the question why I'm not further along...

[Drellingore]

For future thread readers - Dover District Council puts planning committee meetings on YouTube, although I think they get removed after a month. It may be worth looking at those to get a sense of what your local authority is like.

[SteamyTea]

If there is an assumption that the parish council will object to a new building, is it really worth spending any time dealing with them?  Not as if they have any real power.

Edited March 14, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Drellingore]

14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

If there is an assumption that the parish council will object to a new building, is it really worth spending any time dealing with them?  Not as if they have any real power.

 

This is where my knowledge of local government breaks down. The Parish Council objected (and I foolishly didn't keep a track of when it was on the PC agenda, so missed that meeting) and the Ward Councillor is the Vice Chairman of the Parish Council. So unless he was on-the-fence or could be converted, I'm guessing the best case is that I'll be showing good will by reaching out. I'm also unsure of under what conditions the Ward Councillor would attend the planning committee - do they show up when there's something in their area?

Edited March 14, 2023 by Drellingore
adding in bit about attendance

[Canski]

2 hours ago, Drellingore said:

For future thread readers - Dover District Council puts planning committee meetings on YouTube, although I think they get removed after a month. It may be worth looking at those to get a sense of what your local authority is like.

Sorry ( can't resist) I only watched the first 13 minutes and I was sure I had seen these guys in action before. In Wome I think it was.

 

[Drellingore]

35 minutes ago, Drellingore said:

I'm also unsure of under what conditions the Ward Councillor would attend the planning committee - do they show up when there's something in their area?

 

Ah, looking through attendees of the meeting they are all appointed to the committee, and the ward councillor for the area of my plot isn't. So presumably it's not a matter of turning up when there's something in their area.

 

They're all due for re-election in May, so perhaps there'll be a new set by the time the committee hears our case.

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, Drellingore said:

Dover District Council

Now that brings back memories. Glad I don't have to go through that again 😀. Trevor Bartlett was my very helpful supporting councillor back in 2009.

[SteamyTea]

48 minutes ago, Drellingore said:

They're all due for re-election in May

Stand for election.

[Pocster]

50 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Stand for erection .

 

[Mattg4321]

55 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Stand for election.

Has he got time to book in to have his brain surgically removed before May though? 

[SteamyTea]

13 minutes ago, pocster said:

 

Standing proud for morning wood and flagpoles.

[Temp]

In our area the planning committee has two or three people on it who understand planning law and policy. The rest don't have much clue and the chairman has to keep correcting them or they would reject an application for invalid reasons. Many of these also rans put a lot of weight on what local think and several times I've heard them say that neighboururs and the PC support or don't like an application. 

 

If possible I recommend sitting in on the planning meeting the month before yours so you get a feel for the sort of things they worry about. Sometimes it's crazy.

[SimonD]

5 hours ago, Drellingore said:

 I sold my IT consultancy and so have been 'funemployed' since May  Which does beggar the question why I'm not further along...

 

Not really, in my experience the planning process must have been the original inspiration for IT project management approaches, especially Prince, but then they gave up and decided on the make it up as you go along, which had to be called something that sounds like it's well intended...and along came Agile.

 

I think you have the right experience.😉😁

 

Do you have the chance to attend a committee meeting in advance? Can be useful to determine the trouble makers and who seems to influence the rest of them. I had a funny experience with mine in that the most troublesome and cantankerous took me totally my surprise and loved our project - once she'd shouted out her like of it, the rest just fell into line like dominos except for the weaker ones who ducked under their desks and abstained. If it weren't so sad, it would be a comedy. This particularly councilor had only 5 minutes earlier stressed that the committee must respect and go by the Parish council's view, thereby denying a different application. In ours she didn't give a mickey about the Parish council's objection.

 

Edit: Ah, I see that @Temp got in there with this as I was writing.

Edited March 14, 2023 by SimonD

[Dave Jones]

The key is the planning officer. If he recommends approval and gets voted down you are virtually guaranteed a win on appeal.

[ToughButterCup]

15 hours ago, Drellingore said:

 

Ah, looking through attendees of the meeting they are all appointed to the committee, and the ward councillor for the area of my plot isn't. So presumably it's not a matter of turning up when there's something in their area.

....

 

Your post took me back to when I was going through this particular exercise.

 

I went to several committee meetings and to the area planning committee meetings. I wrote up one of the meetings in a blog post here

[Drellingore]

So, a over a full year after making our planning application, it's finally going to committee on Thursday 14th December. My request to speak has been accepted.

 

Firstly - any advice that's general to all planning hearings? I'm watching YouTube videos of my local council's hearings to swot up on the characters and opinions of people involved. Is there a published list of rules or processes that councillors need to adhere to? My prior experience of watching recorded meetings gave me the impression that not all councillors are terribly familiar with planning policies.

 

Secondly - what should I do when the planning officer's report contains inaccuracies? Of four arguments they've proposed against our scheme, one is that we didn't provide a valid Preliminary Ecological Appraisal. This is patently false, as the PEA is listed on the planning portal! It was valid when we made the application a year ago, and we have since had an updated one sorted that they've never asked for.

 

Third - any thoughts or opinions (I might live to regret this) would be appreciated on the arguments of the planning officer and my draft speech. I've got an appointment with a planning consultant tomorrow to see if I'm barking up completely the wrong tree, and a county councillor is also in favour of the scheme and so might be a good source of advice.

Here's the report's recommendation:

 

Quote

g) Recommendation

I PLANNING PERMISSION BE REFUSED for the following reasons:
 

1. The proposals do not represent a sensitive conversion/redevelopment of the historic farmstead, due to their design and form that is out of character with the traditional rural and historic form of the farmstead and the surrounding landscape and failing to enhance its immediate setting. As a result the proposals would cause visual harm and fail to conserve or enhance the landscape and scenic beauty of the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty contrary to paragraphs 130, 134, 174 and 176 of the National Planning Policy Framework (2023), National Design Guidance (2021), policies DM15 and DM16 of the Dover Core Strategy (2010), draft policies SP4, E4, H6 and NE2 of the Submission Draft Dover District Local Plan (2023) and policies SD1, SD2, SD3, SD9, HCH1 and HCH6 of the Kent Downs Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty Management Plan 2021- 2026.

2. The proposals would result in unacceptable loss of historic form and fabric to a non-designated heritage asset and would have a detrimental impact on the character and appearance of the existing building without overriding justification. The proposal would fail to comply with paragraph 203 of the National Planning Policy Framework (2023) and draft policy HE1 of the Submission Draft Dover District Local Plan (2023).
 

3. The proposed new build development, would result in a dwellinghouse outside of any defined confines and in a location where day-to-day needs would be reliant on the use of the car, the need for which has not been demonstrated sufficiently to override normal sustainability objectives. The proposal would result in an unjustified residential development in this rural location contrary to policies DM1 and DM11 of the Dover Core Strategy (2010), Submission Draft Dover District Local Plan (2023) policies SP4 and TI1 and paragraphs 7, 8, 11 and 80 of the National Planning Policy Framework (2023).

4. The application has not been supported by a Preliminary Ecological Appraisal or species-specific surveys to demonstrate whether protected species are present on the site. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, the proposal has failed to fully consider the impact of the proposal on protected species and demonstrate that this site would protect, enhance and minimise impacts to biodiversity contrary to paragraphs 174 and 180 of the National Planning Policy Framework (2023) and paragraph 99 of Circular 06/2005 Biodiversity and Geological Conservation – Statutory Obligations and their Impact within the Planning System.

Here's the first draft of my speech, which I can get through in 2m 50s, before getting any professional feedback:
 

Quote

Good evening, and thank you for the opportunity to speak. My partner and I bought Drellingore Barns three years ago with a dream of creating a family home that would allow us and our daughters to live more closely to nature, growing our own food and generating our own electricity.

 

Of the four arguments against our proposal, two can be easily dismissed. 

 

The first is that we did not provide a preliminary ecological assessment. This is patently false. Valid reports were submitted when we made the application one year ago, and are available online. We have more up-to-date surveys that we could have provided, had we been asked.

 

The next point is that the conversion is outside the confines of Alkham. This was also the case when the principle of residential conversion was established in the 2018 application. If it was acceptable then, it should be acceptable now.

 

This brings us to heritage.

 

Our design centres around the use of straw bales, an eco wonder-technology that can be locally sourced and is carbon sequestering. They offer great thermal performance, meaning that the building is not only sustainable in its construction but sustainable throughout its lifespan. To achieve this, the external shape of the barn - which is not a listed building - will need to change.

 

It can be read from the historic timber frame that the threshing barn has been partially dismantled and extended at least once. Our plans commit us to preserving this core historic timber frame. We are committed to retaining salvaging and reusing historic fabric wherever we can, to preserve history and reduce our environmental impact. We would be happy to move the garage to the east of the threshing barn, to reuse an existing historic building’s footprint, thereby preserving the layout of the farmstead. In our research of the site’s 300 year history, it's clear that at least 10 buildings have been constructed and demolished on the site. It has undergone constant evolution satisfying the needs of the day. 

 

Finally, there is the issue of enhancing the natural landscape. The outstanding natural beauty of the area will be enhanced by the biodiversity net gain that goes above and beyond that which we are required to deliver. The outstanding natural beauty of the area will be safeguarded for generations to come by delivering an environmentally friendly building that will mitigate the impact of the climate crisis. 

 

If the gates look to domestic we will happily change this. Our scheme enjoys universal support from commenters: our neighbours;  the farmer, who was born on site, and spent most of his life working there; and strangers, including county councillor Martin Scherer, who has voiced his support not once, but twice. 

 

We’ve been waiting a year for this meeting. All we want is to create the site’s next evolutionary step, building an family home that is supported by locals, is ethical and environmentally-friendly, before my kids are too old to live there and need to move to Uni.

 

[SimonD]

12 minutes ago, Drellingore said:

So, a over a full year after making our planning application, it's finally going to committee on Thursday 14th December. My request to speak has been accepted.

 

Firstly - any advice that's general to all planning hearings? I'm watching YouTube videos of my local council's hearings to swot up on the characters and opinions of people involved. Is there a published list of rules or processes that councillors need to adhere to? My prior experience of watching recorded meetings gave me the impression that not all councillors are terribly familiar with planning policies.

 

Secondly - what should I do when the planning officer's report contains inaccuracies? Of four arguments they've proposed against our scheme, one is that we didn't provide a valid Preliminary Ecological Appraisal. This is patently false, as the PEA is listed on the planning portal! It was valid when we made the application a year ago, and we have since had an updated one sorted that they've never asked for.

 

Third - any thoughts or opinions (I might live to regret this) would be appreciated on the arguments of the planning officer and my draft speech. I've got an appointment with a planning consultant tomorrow to see if I'm barking up completely the wrong tree, and a county councillor is also in favour of the scheme and so might be a good source of advice.

Here's the report's recommendation:

 

Here's the first draft of my speech, which I can get through in 2m 50s, before getting any professional feedback:
 

 

 

Good luck with this, I hope it goes well for you!

 

In terms of suggestions, there are a few things I would bring to the table:

 

1. Don't immediately go in for an argument or use the term 'easily dismissed' as it can come across as rather antagonistic. You need a compelling argument to get the committee on your side.

 

2. Build upon your initial paragraph to develop a story about how you've considered in your design the aspects of heritage, natural landscape, sustainability and support from the local community. Do you have any support from the Parish Council which could be mentioned. Also mention any and all your attempts to satisfy the requirements of the planners

 

3. Then go into how you believe you've satisfied the conditions the planner has based their refusal on.

 

4. Once you've built that story, if necessary you can then go to dismantling the planner's position using the advice you get from your planning consultant, but particularly if there are any problems with due process - for example, the planner has said you haven't 'sufficiently demonstrated' - have they asked for further information, defined what would be sufficient? And also there state that you have in fact supplied the PEA and updated it. Also highlight that you are willing to compromise on certain elements.

 

5. Carefully consider the legal duties on process for further appeal and raise any and all of these points if needed

 

In my experience, the committee can completely ignore the planner's refusal if they want to. They can also completely ignore community/parish council in favour of a developer who has put forward a strong argument that they feel will actually benefit the community.....so it's a lottery.

 

HTH.

[joe90]

Good luck. With my planning committee meeting my then wife spoke (as it was her plot left her by her father) and concentrated on the family history in the area (in hindsight a wrong tactic) however the neighbour from hell then spoke and trotted out numerous lies, councillors then trotted out inaccuracies in our application and we were not allowed to challenge any of this. The councillor that supported us would not look me in the eye and voted against us……with all the others. However I won at appeal so 🖕, yes

6 minutes ago, SimonD said:

it's a lottery.

I agree, but not the end of the world and I found going to appeal easier than applying for planning (I did my own).