Pipe layout sensible??

[Conor]

48 minutes ago, Conor said:

The steel letterbox. How deep is it? Assume it's sitting directly on the concrete floor slab? Is there insulation around / over it? ? Looks like it's sitting above your floor insualtion with UFH pipes going directly over it. If its a 203x203UC then looks like you've 150mm floor insualtion? What's the build up on the RHS of the beam? Assume existing house?

 

 

Just realised that the bottom steel is probably resting on the existing rear wall of the house. The wall should have been lowered more so the steel would sit low enought to be insualted.

 

Re the electrics, I assume the new spaces are getting all new wiring going back to the consumer unit and they aren't just extending existing rings?

[Jenki]

2 hours ago, AmKal said:

What's your thoughts on this wiring...

🙈. Pointers 

@ProDave mentions safe zones. All that trunking/ conduit is a mess. And I foresee issues for plasterboarding.

All the cables in the ceiling should be secured with fire rated clips / straps to stop them dangling down in the event of a fire. ( And like they are now.)

All the diagonal cables between the joists scream i'm going to save £1.50 on cable to use on another job.

I'd be stunned if this is a pro spark and not the jobbing builder who's going to get his mate to sign it off?

If not in Scotland you have Part P to satisfy for Building Control.

The fact is it's all exposed so should be neat , tidy and organised.

Unfortunately it's the same "quality" as the plumbing. The good thing is your here asking before it's too late.

Good luck with the builder.

 

[AmKal]

Hi, I spoke to the plumber today and showed the comments.  He agreed to add a stop valve (after the floor has been screeded at the island).  The joints from under the screed have been removed, see pics.  The cold water is not as close to the other UFH pipes, but still there!

 

I advised re. the D1 D2 and said it needs to 'fall' at an angle, I think he understands and will not let it go.

 

I've posted a pic below of the join without the tap.

 

Now my concerns move to the electrics! OMG!

[AmKal]

[AmKal]

[AmKal]

Does this look any better?

[Jenki]

Anybody want a bet that there's a joint under this plastic,😬 Just seems a bit suspicious 

 

 

Edit. Noticed the pipe has moved so hopefully it's not a joint🤞

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Jenki
More info

[Mattg4321]

That wiring all needs ripping out and start again with a real electrician. It’s a total mess. Cables run out of safe zones, cables that will cause problems with plasterboarding and plastering. Cables run to positions that seem implausible. 

 

However the cables don’t need metal clips as a poster suggested above. As long as they are above a plasterboard ceiling, this would be enough to stop them from ‘prematurely collapsing’. Having said that, it’s not a bad idea to fix them securely with something metal anyway. 
 

You need to seriously consider getting shot of everyone who has contributed to this disaster of a job imo. 
 

 

[Conor]

Another thing thing that BC might pull you up on is the grey waste pipe coming up through the floor at the plant area. It should be brown underground pipe for anywhere below floor level. (Assuming it's a waste pipe and not a conduit)

 

I'd speak to your building control officer yourself, get them round and see what they point out. Don't take your builder's word for it that BC have been round and are "OK" with the current state of things.

 

And please tell me that anti-cracking mesh isn't resting on the pipes... Think that's a guaranteed way to have a damaged pipe. Has everything been filled with water and pressurised?

Edited February 13, 2023 by Conor

[Jenki]

1 hour ago, Mattg4321 said:

However the cables don’t need metal clips as a poster suggested above. As long as they are above a plasterboard ceiling, this would be enough to stop them from ‘prematurely

@Mattg4321 Are you sure?  BS7671 18th edition, has requirements for fire protection.

 

"All cables throughout an installation (not just in escape routes) should be secured with fire resistant cable supports and fixings, i.e. fully metallic cable clips, ties, and fixings, including within plastic cable management systems."

 

[ProDave]

Yes I believe the way forward is to halt the job, meet with your BC inspector yourself without the builder present to intimidate you, go round all the points this thread has highlighted with him and get him to evaluate them, and then provide you with a list of things that need correcting before the job progresses.  Your builder won't be able to argue with that.

[Andehh]

9 hours ago, ProDave said:

Yes I believe the way forward is to halt the job, meet with your BC inspector yourself without the builder present to intimidate you, go round all the points this thread has highlighted with him and get him to evaluate them, and then provide you with a list of things that need correcting before the job progresses.  Your builder won't be able to argue with that.

 

Totally this OP!!

 

Sorry you're in a difficult situation..... But this is the best course of action.  The alternative is get building control in site WITH the builder so they can discuss it and agree rectification work. 

 

Builder can argue about "randomers on the Internet" but BC will give you a cast iron line in the sand the builder cannot compromise on. 

 

Just in the background, I would start looking at who else in the area could take the job on. Even if you need to liaise direct with individual trades. 

 

Ask at local builders merchants, facebook, friends, family, work colleagues etc etc. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Andehh

[Mattg4321]

9 hours ago, Jenki said:

@Mattg4321 Are you sure?  BS7671 18th edition, has requirements for fire protection.

 

"All cables throughout an installation (not just in escape routes) should be secured with fire resistant cable supports and fixings, i.e. fully metallic cable clips, ties, and fixings, including within plastic cable management systems."

 

The regulations don’t make specific mention of exact scenarios (such as behind a plasterboard ceiling), only that they must be protected against ‘premature collapse’. It’s generally accepted that above a plasterboard ceiling plastic clips would be fine, however it might be good practice to fit metal. 
 

Have a look at this efixx video. There was also another one where someone from the IET was discussing it and gave the same opinion (against someone from NAPIT who was suggesting metal clips might be required). In practice most people do not use metal fixings above plasterboard currently from what I’ve observed. 
 

 

[Jenki]

@Mattg4321, not specific to me means all. I.e everywhere.  

Same as the Installation of Insulated plasterboards are required to have mechanical fixings to the top to prevent them from detaching during a fire.

This is the same, during a fire firemen would rip plasterboard down to ensure it's all wet. This is to prevent the cables trapping firemen (fire persons).

NAPIT were insistent, as I think NICEIC?.

Between rafters I use clips and back it up with galvanised strap band. quick, easy and cheap.

 

 

[AmKal]

10 hours ago, ProDave said:

Yes I believe the way forward is to halt the job, meet with your BC inspector yourself without the builder present to intimidate you, go round all the points this thread has highlighted with him and get him to evaluate them, and then provide you with a list of things that need correcting before the job progresses.  Your builder won't be able to argue with that.

Thank you for all the comments.  Regarding electrics is certainly isn't finished, but I will relay the fact it needs clipping and will discuss safety zones.

[AmKal]

1 hour ago, Andehh said:

 

Totally this OP!!

 

Sorry you're in a difficult situation..... But this is the best course of action.  The alternative is get building control in site WITH the builder so they can discuss it and agree rectification work. 

 

Builder can argue about "randomers on the Internet" but BC will give you a cast iron line in the sand the builder cannot compromise on. 

 

Just in the background, I would start looking at who else in the area could take the job on. Even if you need to liaise direct with individual trades. 

 

Ask at local builders merchants, facebook, friends, family, work colleagues etc etc. 

Regarding rectification work, is is namely the wiring?  Can the screed go down tomorrow considering the mains water issue is on the verge of being resolved and the plumber has agreed to change the D1 D2 issue with the flow.

[ProDave]

I would not pour the screed yet.  While you have improved the cold feed situation, you still have the cold feed to other parts of the house buried in that same screed.

[Mattg4321]

1 hour ago, Jenki said:

@Mattg4321, not specific to me means all. I.e everywhere.  

Same as the Installation of Insulated plasterboards are required to have mechanical fixings to the top to prevent them from detaching during a fire.

This is the same, during a fire firemen would rip plasterboard down to ensure it's all wet. This is to prevent the cables trapping firemen (fire persons).

NAPIT were insistent, as I think NICEIC?.

Between rafters I use clips and back it up with galvanised strap band. quick, easy and cheap.

 

 

Largely I agree with you that that is the best approach and what I do. You won’t be able to argue it ‘needs’ or ‘must’ be done though. The reality is most people don’t. You’re free to interpret the regs however you like, as is everyone else. 
 

Here is some guidance from IET. As ever, clear as mud. I asked my NIC inspector last year what his thoughts were. He said plastic clips above plasterboard ceiling is acceptable to him. 
 

The electrical designer could deem it appropriate to rely on the plasterboard ceiling to provide fire protection to the wiring system in order to prevent premature collapse. However, many influences should be considered such as building size, complexity and evacuation time.

 

https://electrical.theiet.org/bs-7671/faqs/cables-and-fire-protection-faqs/

[saveasteading]

20 minutes ago, Mattg4321 said:

appropriate to rely on the plasterboard ceiling

Not sure that an electrician tends to be trained in fire protection. However, the protection by plasterboard tends to be better than the tests show (it sells more plasterboard), so the wires should be protected long enough for most situations. Tidy is always good though.

 

I would insist on a thorough clean before the screed goes down, and taping of the joints to prevent the plastic lifting or screed running through. At least 3 sources of plastic there suggests any old offcuts of stuff is being used.

I hate to think what the dpm is made of.

[Nickfromwales]

On 14/02/2023 at 08:17, Jenki said:

not specific to me means all. I.e everywhere.  

Same as the Installation of Insulated plasterboards are required to have mechanical fixings to the top to prevent them from detaching during a fire.

This is the same, during a fire firemen would rip plasterboard down to ensure it's all wet. This is to prevent the cables trapping firemen (fire persons).

NAPIT were insistent, as I think NICEIC?.

Between rafters I use clips and back it up with galvanised strap band. quick, easy and cheap.

If there is a mechanically fixed plasterboard and plaster layer, you need absolutely zero additional mechanical / fire clips / support. Those are the facts.

On my full wiring jobs I encourage my sparks to run through the posi-joists where the two lower webs meet, but even that is just me being OCD.

For the OP, there is no need whatsoever to use metal clips anywhere on this job. They would only be required above a pvc ceiling, or above a suspended ceiling where there is no other means of arrest. Same way that metal clips need to be installed within pvc trunking. Furthermore, this only needs observing in areas which form a means of egress / preserved fire zones ( halls / stairs / landings in a 3 storey or non single-compartment dwelling ). I've had this out with the regulatory 'bods' as I need to preserve my own indemnities also vs just take the word of my ( excellent ) 1st sparky, even though he was annoyingly right about most things   

We really do not need to add conjecture to the OP's plate, as it's full enough!!

 

Metal clips / banding NOT NECESSARY here.

[Mattg4321]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

If there is a mechanically fixed plasterboard and plaster layer, you need absolutely zero additional mechanical / fire clips / support. Those are the facts.

On my full wiring jobs I encourage my sparks to run through the posi-joists where the two lower webs meet, but even that is just me being OCD.

For the OP, there is no need whatsoever to use metal clips anywhere on this job. They would only be required above a pvc ceiling, or above a suspended ceiling where there is no other means of arrest. Same way that metal clips need to be installed within pvc trunking. Furthermore, this only needs observing in areas which form a means of egress / preserved fire zones ( halls / stairs / landings in a 3 storey or non single-compartment dwelling ). I've had this out with the regulatory 'bods' as I need to preserve my own indemnities also vs just take the word of my ( excellent ) 1st sparky, even though he was annoyingly right about most things   

We really do not need to add conjecture to the OP's plate, as it's full enough!!

 

Metal clips / banding NOT NECESSARY here.

Nearly right Nick 😃

 

Since the 18th edition came into force, the requirement has gone from ensuring all wiring on escape routes is protected against premature collapse, to just ‘all wiring’. It now applies everywhere, including data/telephone/tv cabling. 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Mattg4321 said:

Nearly right Nick 😃

 

Since the 18th edition came into force, the requirement has gone from ensuring all wiring on escape routes is protected against premature collapse, to just ‘all wiring’. It now applies everywhere, including data/telephone/tv cabling. 

I am revising my 18th atm, so yes, may just be a little rusty.

My point still stands, and that it is not required in the OP's instance, eg for areas with mechanically fixed plasterboard ( as the means of arrest ).

[Jenki]

On 19/02/2023 at 16:59, Nickfromwales said:

My point still stands, and that it is not required in the OP's instance, eg for areas with mechanically fixed plasterboard ( as the means of arrest ).

It's seems, like most things electrical, views differ. My NAPIT 18th edition update course , and my annual inspector seemed to suggest it's a must, but I knew of other NAPIT areas where it was little more relaxed.

It seems like @Mattg4321 experience with NICEIC was a little more relaxed also.

 

I carried on clipping with plastic clips as I always have and then added loops of galvanised banding every few meters and my inspector was happy with this.

 

 On the course, the example given was firemen regularly rip down plasterboard to ensure fire is out, and the idea was to prevent the cable entangling the fire brigade. May be an urban myth, but for me to be keep my Part P ticket it needed addressing.🤷

[Nickfromwales]

35 minutes ago, Jenki said:

On the course, the example given was firemen regularly rip down plasterboard to ensure fire is out, and the idea was to prevent the cable entangling the fire brigade.

Conversely, everything I heard was relative to the cables not dropping onto firefighters whilst fighting a fire / clearing survivors and victims etc. Pulling a ceiling down is strategic, so they'd have support then and the smoke would be evacuated / controlled before they got permission to re-enter.

 

If you came to one of my electrical installs you'd find the black metal banding everywhere, every 600mm or less, as I like looms. All of it a complete and utter waste of time as it was unnecessary. Made me feel good, but after the plasterboard went up nobody gave 2 fecks about it. Looked good in the photos I now show to new clients, but that's about it.

[Jenki]

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

If you came to one of my electrical installs you'd find the black metal banding everywhere, every 600mm or less, as I like looms. All of it a complete and utter waste of time as it was unnecessary. Made me feel good, but after the plasterboard went up nobody gave 2 fecks about it

Yep. I did a shop refit, and the main contractor was adamant everything was banded for his insurance. Looks good, but once the ceiling grid and  tiles went up, no one cares. I found later he used a lot of the banding to hang the grid from🙈