Views on use of Joule Modulair All-E, GreenComfort and cylinder

[Rodge]

Does anyone have experience of, or opinions about, Joule's new (in 2022) product, Modulair All-E, with GreenComfort and cylinder?

 

It is an Exhaust Air Heat Pump supplying DWC and space heating, both via hot water to radiators and heating of air drawn into the building (with the 'Green Comfort' optional extra).  So it combines DWC, space heating and MVHR in one unit - with a cost of around £7500.  The target market seems to be primarily flats less than, say, 100m2.  Source: https://joule.ie/modulair-all-e-product-page/ 

 I'm aware of strong reservations on this forum (by Jeremy Harris, in particular - sad that he seems to be no longer contributing) about Exhaust AHP but this product seems to avoid the substance of those reservations since it draws external air into the building through ducting, along the lines of MVHR.

As a self-builder of an almost Passive House, 77m2 on one level and almost open-plan, I'm attracted by the notion of killing three birds with one stone (DHW, space heating and ventilation).  Modelling of plans by Warm consultants in Plymouth suggests a small heat load on cold days of 24Kwh over 24 hours.  My main concern is around noise - the data supplied are thin and not convincing.  And in the winter, the EAHP will have to circulate the greatest volume of air to extract the required heat input - the noise of which would be much less noticeable if it were an externally-sited ASHP.

Any thoughts, much appreciated.

Rodge

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Rodge
Accuracy, to avoid confusion

[Thedreamer]

I don't have this one, but an earlier Joule model called an Aero.

 

Just does our hot water and acts as an MEV system.

 

Works well for us, it was significantly cheaper than that price.

 

 

[JohnMo]

Sounds a lot of money not convinced, didn't see anything on efficiency. Small A2A for heat and cooling?

[Kelvin]

Performance details
 

https://erpfichetool.jouleiot.com/#/specification/Joule UK/HMMC-PP-012

[Iceverge]

I've been considering this issue with some time. I've come to the conclusion that combining stuff is a bad job. From backhoe loaders to sporks they all end up like  Frankenstein's monster. 

 

We built a 185m2 passive house and use about 15-25kWh daily (3200kWh in winter 2021/2022) during the heating season, all on a single electric rad so very in much the same ball park as you. 

 

We have an immersion driven 300l DHW cylinder that provides fine for our family of 4 on cheap (14c/kWh) overnight electricity. This is about 9kWh per day (330kWh annually)

 

If we were to install an ESHP it would "steal" 9kWh of heat from the house per day and return a COP of about 3.5 at 50deg water temp. Good for @Thedreamer who can easily replace the heat with a woodburner and is using heat that would otherwise be lost through extract only ventilation.

 

Not so good for us with MVHR and tiny ventilation losses. Any energy taken by the ESHP would be just added to the space heating electricity bill. 

 

If the ESHP was vented to the outside only it would lower the COP to about 2.5 (maybe?). At 50 deg it would need to run outside of peak hours too (49c/kWh) as it couldn't bank the same energy as the immersion tank at 300l at 70deg. Doing the sums, the saving was small, 40c per day. At at least €2500 to get one installed it was a 17 year payback. I bet the ESHP would break before then. 

 

A better plan I think is to install PV, at 4kW the payback is 7 years on DHW alone, shorter realistically considering that is will mostly displace super expensive daytime electricity. With a 25 year guarantee on the panels and zero moving parts it has a fighting chance of actually saving us some money before it goes kaput. 

 

Space heating is a different story. Had we had the wisdom to install UFH we could have banked our cheap night electricity rate in the floor slab with a wills heater like @TerryE

 

As is we do about 1/3 space heating at day rate. Given the bananas price of electricity at the moment that now means €800 per year vs the €250 i planned on when electricity was 8c/kWh and I thought the house would not need evening heating. 

 

A good A2A at about €1500 installed will hopefully drop this to €200 per year for space heating, payback in about 2.5 years. Again a chance it'll save cash long term. Maybe a couple of elec heaters in the bathrooms for comfort just when occupied.

 

As for MVHR, get a reliable unit with ready supply of spares and reasonably priced filters. Ours are €48 a pair, luckily the €7 pollen filter of a Citrôen Berlingo fit with a little prodding lol. 

 

TLDR. 

 

Immersion and PV divert for DHW. 

A2A for space heating.

Stand alone MVHR. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Iceverge

[Gone West]

11 hours ago, Rodge said:

Does anyone have experience of, or opinions about, Joule's new (in 2022) product, Modulair All-E, with GreenComfort and cylinder?

I installed a similar compact unit, in 2017, into my 120m2 Passivhaus. It was a Genvex Combi185LS and it worked very well. It was quiet, it stored 185l of water at 45C efficiently and kept the house ventilated. IMO it only worked well because the house was small and only required 13kWh/m2a and had an airtightness of 0.47ACH. The house was heated with three electric towel rails in the bathrooms and the warm air from the Genvex was only produced when it was cold outside.

[Rodge]

Interesting responses, thanks!

 

On 10/02/2023 at 08:19, Gone West said:

I installed a similar compact unit, in 2017, into my 120m2 Passivhaus. It was a Genvex Combi185LS and it worked very well. It was quiet, it stored 185l of water at 45C efficiently and kept the house ventilated. IMO it only worked well because the house was small and only required 13kWh/m2a and had an airtightness of 0.47ACH. The house was heated with three electric towel rails in the bathrooms and the warm air from the Genvex was only produced when it was cold outside.

Sounds very similar to this newer Joule ModulAir product, and if it's quiet, a real contender.  But you used the past tense, I guess that's only because you sold the property and moved on?

 

On 09/02/2023 at 23:39, Iceverge said:

If we were to install an ESHP it would "steal" 9kWh of heat from the house per day and return a COP of about 3.5 at 50deg water temp. Good for @Thedreamer who can easily replace the heat with a woodburner and is using heat that would otherwise be lost through extract only ventilation.

I'm not sure I've got my head around the idea of 'stealing' heat - perhaps it is that the heat extracted by the EAHP from the exhaust stream would have largely been retained by a MHVR unit anyway, and with this EAHP, the incoming air (brought in from outside) then has to be re-heated.   The only gain in using this HP approach to this pumped ventilation would be if the EAHP was powerful enough to go beyond that heat transfer ,to extract even more heat from the exhaust stream - to use to both heat up the incoming air (back to the exhaust temperature) and have enough to warm the air (if needed) and provide some for DHW heating.  So if exhaust were 18° and external air 3°, say, that would be demanding.   I don't see any information in Kelvin's post that this is acheived by this model

 

On 09/02/2023 at 22:24, Kelvin said:

Performance details
 

https://erpfichetool.jouleiot.com/#/specification/Joule UK/HMMC-PP-012

 

Plus - and this is perhaps my main concern with combining the HP with MVHR in one unit - there may well be a conflict between the air flow rates to achieve adequate ventilation (normally via MVHR) and fair low rates to harvest, as it were, enough heat for both space heating and DHW.  (Although the Genvex seems to do it successfully)

So I share Iceverge's notion that 'combining stuff is a bad job.'

I'm researching Iceverge's three pronged approach of (1) Immersion and PV divert for DHW. (2) A2A for space heating (3) Stand alone MVHR.

 

A further diagram of system, for clarity

 

Appreciate the input - very inspiring!

Rodge

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gone West]

2 hours ago, Rodge said:

But you used the past tense, I guess that's only because you sold the property and moved on?

That's right, we lived there for just over three years. If you've got a well performing house and they're sized correctly, they work well.

[Jenki]

I've just had a quote through for this system. It's a 90sqm house and the quote was 6.8k plus Vat and this excludes ducting.

So it's fairly expensive solution.

[JackofAll]

On 09/02/2023 at 23:39, Iceverge said:

I've been considering this issue with some time. I've come to the conclusion that combining stuff is a bad job. From backhoe loaders to sporks they all end up like  Frankenstein's monster. 

 

We built a 185m2 passive house and use about 15-25kWh daily (3200kWh in winter 2021/2022) during the heating season, all on a single electric rad so very in much the same ball park as you. 

 

We have an immersion driven 300l DHW cylinder that provides fine for our family of 4 on cheap (14c/kWh) overnight electricity. This is about 9kWh per day (330kWh annually)

 

If we were to install an ESHP it would "steal" 9kWh of heat from the house per day and return a COP of about 3.5 at 50deg water temp. Good for @Thedreamer who can easily replace the heat with a woodburner and is using heat that would otherwise be lost through extract only ventilation.

 

Not so good for us with MVHR and tiny ventilation losses. Any energy taken by the ESHP would be just added to the space heating electricity bill. 

 

If the ESHP was vented to the outside only it would lower the COP to about 2.5 (maybe?). At 50 deg it would need to run outside of peak hours too (49c/kWh) as it couldn't bank the same energy as the immersion tank at 300l at 70deg. Doing the sums, the saving was small, 40c per day. At at least €2500 to get one installed it was a 17 year payback. I bet the ESHP would break before then. 

 

A better plan I think is to install PV, at 4kW the payback is 7 years on DHW alone, shorter realistically considering that is will mostly displace super expensive daytime electricity. With a 25 year guarantee on the panels and zero moving parts it has a fighting chance of actually saving us some money before it goes kaput. 

 

Space heating is a different story. Had we had the wisdom to install UFH we could have banked our cheap night electricity rate in the floor slab with a wills heater like @TerryE

 

As is we do about 1/3 space heating at day rate. Given the bananas price of electricity at the moment that now means €800 per year vs the €250 i planned on when electricity was 8c/kWh and I thought the house would not need evening heating. 

 

A good A2A at about €1500 installed will hopefully drop this to €200 per year for space heating, payback in about 2.5 years. Again a chance it'll save cash long term. Maybe a couple of elec heaters in the bathrooms for comfort just when occupied.

 

As for MVHR, get a reliable unit with ready supply of spares and reasonably priced filters. Ours are €48 a pair, luckily the €7 pollen filter of a Citrôen Berlingo fit with a little prodding lol. 

 

TLDR. 

 

Immersion and PV divert for DHW. 

A2A for space heating.

Stand alone MVHR. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@Iceverge what Mhrv system did you fit? Great idea re. Berlingo filters

[Iceverge]

Proair pa600li. Bought it directly from them but DIY'd the ducting. Radial rather than trunk and branch. 

 

Wouldn't shy away from using them for the full install either however. 

[JackofAll]

56 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Proair pa600li. Bought it directly from them but DIY'd the ducting. Radial rather than trunk and branch. 

 

Wouldn't shy away from using them for the full install either however. 

Still waiting on them to come back with quote, believe they are made here too.

[Iceverge]

Yup Galway I think. 

 

I would include a silencer on the house supply side of the unit and put it somewhere you can't hear it in the bedrooms but I imagine these are common issues to most units. 

 

No problems otherwise. 

 

 

 

 

[JackofAll]

4 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Yup Galway I think. 

 

I would include a silencer on the house supply side of the unit and put it somewhere you can't hear it in the bedrooms but I imagine these are common issues to most units. 

 

No problems otherwise. 

 

 

 

 

Do you mean away from the bedrooms

[Iceverge]

Yup, ours is in the utility and you can heat it in there. Ok with the door closed. 

[JackofAll]

9 hours ago, Iceverge said:

Yup, ours is in the utility and you can heat it in there. Ok with the door closed. 

@Iceverge audible in comparison to what, thought the units were fairly quiet, as an aside we were going to put ours in attic but as it will be cold roof, decided to place in utility.

[Iceverge]

About the same as a dishwasher maybe. 

[JackofAll]

8 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

About the same as a dishwasher maybe. 

Wow, alot louder than I thought, will check out the dB levels of various units before committing.

[lynne]

On 12/02/2023 at 10:29, Rodge said:

Interesting responses, thanks!

 

Sounds very similar to this newer Joule ModulAir product, and if it's quiet, a real contender.  But you used the past tense, I guess that's only because you sold the property and moved on?

 

I'm not sure I've got my head around the idea of 'stealing' heat - perhaps it is that the heat extracted by the EAHP from the exhaust stream would have largely been retained by a MHVR unit anyway, and with this EAHP, the incoming air (brought in from outside) then has to be re-heated.   The only gain in using this HP approach to this pumped ventilation would be if the EAHP was powerful enough to go beyond that heat transfer ,to extract even more heat from the exhaust stream - to use to both heat up the incoming air (back to the exhaust temperature) and have enough to warm the air (if needed) and provide some for DHW heating.  So if exhaust were 18° and external air 3°, say, that would be demanding.   I don't see any information in Kelvin's post that this is acheived by this model

 

 

Plus - and this is perhaps my main concern with combining the HP with MVHR in one unit - there may well be a conflict between the air flow rates to achieve adequate ventilation (normally via MVHR) and fair low rates to harvest, as it were, enough heat for both space heating and DHW.  (Although the Genvex seems to do it successfully)

So I share Iceverge's notion that 'combining stuff is a bad job.'

I'm researching Iceverge's three pronged approach of (1) Immersion and PV divert for DHW. (2) A2A for space heating (3) Stand alone MVHR.

 

A further diagram of system, for clarity

 

Appreciate the input - very inspiring!

Rodge

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What route did you decide to take? I’m grappling with similar decision for a small 60m2 back to brick, (not quite enerPhit) retrofit. 

[JohnMo]

10 hours ago, lynne said:

I'm not sure I've got my head around the idea of 'stealing' heat

From Joulec web site

"When there is a heat or hot water demand the ventilation rate increases to boost level." So you increase flow rate, extract more heat from house and push that heat to water heating either to DHW or CH. So rob Peter to pay Paul.

 

I would keep ventilation (MVHR or dMEV on demand control to take no space) and heating (CH and DHW) separate.

 

Something like this

https://trianco.co.uk/activair-indoor-9111-9111 for a heat pump 

 

An unvented cylinder.

[SteamyTea]

On 09/02/2023 at 23:39, Iceverge said:

come to the conclusion that combining stuff is a bad job

That is generally my thinking.

All three do a different job, at different temperatures and at different times.

[Iceverge]

The only benefit I can see from an ESHP really is in a building that demands a lot of cooling over a year. 

 

Otherwise robbing you're Peter to pay Paul like mentioned above, unless your heating is "free" firewood and you're into that kind of thing.  

 

I think I did calculations on it at some stage and from memory I seem to remember the ESHP was better off just getting and returning it's air from outside rather than extracting from the house during the heating season. 

 

@lynne

 

I would install an A2A unit in a centre area and a direct 300l cylinder on a TOU tariff and some fan heaters in the bathrooms. 

 

You have a small building and I suspect the lifetime costs will be smaller than anything else.

 

This is pretty much what we have in our 185m² passive house. £2000 up front for the bits today. 

 

Running costs for 5 people is about €200 space heating and €400 for DHW.