Fixing Rationel Windows

[jayc89]

Supplier is asking if we require fixing brackets. They'll be installed in our solid-wall house so I was assuming I'd have to remove the window and use concrete screws through the frame, which would be a PITA as half the window is fixed... So fixing brackets wouldn't be a bad idea, are they suitable for when fitted to solid brick walls?

[nod]

100% yes

 

I can never see the point of fixing through a frame Other than  saving on patching 

[saveasteading]

  On 02/02/2023 at 13:18, nod said:

can never see the point of fixing through a frame Other than  saving on patching 

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Never say never.

Most of my commercial experience is with steel buildings, so the screw through the frame is simple and very effective. With an ali frame, and glazed on site this is quick and tidy, with the screws hidden.

 

[Russell griffiths]

If you have any particularly large windows get some different brackets, the standard ones are a bit poo.

You can buy a multi use fixing plate, it is about 100x150 with 40-50 holes in it gives far more choice of screw location.  

[saveasteading]

I was very surprised when Nordan said we choose our own straps then showed us some metal offcut from who knows what. 

What size, how many, what screws, would be better to be specified,  or at least suggested.

[jayc89]

  On 02/02/2023 at 13:49, Russell griffiths said:

If you have any particularly large windows get some different brackets, the standard ones are a bit poo.

You can buy a multi use fixing plate, it is about 100x150 with 40-50 holes in it gives far more choice of screw location.  

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Ours are approx. 1200x1500mm so reasonably large and I suspect will be quite hefty. I think the Rationel standard is 150mm 3mm galvanised steel plate, would you recommend something else?

[Dave Jones]

drilling through the frame compromises the U value and cold bridges the frame.

 

straps every time.

[nod]

  On 02/02/2023 at 13:36, saveasteading said:

Never say never.

Most of my commercial experience is with steel buildings, so the screw through the frame is simple and very effective. With an ali frame, and glazed on site this is quick and tidy, with the screws hidden.

 

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Messy

[Roundtuit]

  On 02/02/2023 at 14:18, jayc89 said:

 I think the Rationel standard is 150mm 3mm galvanised steel plate

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That sounds about right.  They also have a crank in them which I found was too much, and started to bow some jambs slightly.   I ended up hammering them all flat before fitting.

[Nickfromwales]

  On 02/02/2023 at 15:20, Roundtuit said:

That sounds about right.  They also have a crank in them which I found was too much, and started to bow some jambs slightly.   I ended up hammering them all flat before fitting.

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Usually indicates that the openings weren’t big enough for windows?

 

  On 02/02/2023 at 14:18, jayc89 said:

 

Ours are approx. 1200x1500mm so reasonably large and I suspect will be quite hefty. I think the Rationel standard is 150mm 3mm galvanised steel plate, would you recommend something else?

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Nope. 
I’ve recently had to organise the removal and refitting of a load of Rational and Velfac units, and the original fitting crew used “universal” plates which were a complete bag of shit. The replacement fitters I drafted in took one look at them and just conformed what I thought. They then produced the proper brackets which actually lock into the frames by design, almost not needing screws at all, by offering them up parallel and then inserting into the profile of the frame, and then the bracket gets rotated 90° to lock the bracket into the frame. Rock solid. 
 

Anything less is a huge bodge.

 

Drilling through the frames with concrete ( or other ) screws is the very last option imho. 

[jayc89]

  On 02/02/2023 at 16:47, Nickfromwales said:

Usually indicates that the openings weren’t big enough for windows?

 

Nope. 
I’ve recently had to organise the removal and refitting of a load of Rational and Velfac units, and the original fitting crew used “universal” plates which were a complete bag of shit. The replacement fitters I drafted in took one look at them and just conformed what I thought. They then produced the proper brackets which actually lock into the frames by design, almost not needing screws at all, by offering them up parallel and then inserting into the profile of the frame, and then the bracket gets rotated 90° to lock the bracket into the frame. Rock solid. 
 

Anything less is a huge bodge.

 

Drilling through the frames with concrete ( or other ) screws is the very last option imho. 

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What openings are the provided fixings made for? I've spec'd all my windows 10mm smaller (all around) than the structural opening, that I'll slide compriband into once fitted. 

[Nickfromwales]

  On 02/02/2023 at 17:11, jayc89 said:

 

What openings are the provided fixings made for? I've spec'd all my windows 10mm smaller (all around) than the structural opening, that I'll slide compriband into once fitted. 

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12mm is the smallest gap I would ( now ) allow for ( after being force-fed window installation do’s and don’ts ). 
It was only after having no choice other than to step in and help a client out with a ( now evaporated ) window companies aftermath(s) that I now know this. 
The fixings are cranked or nearly straight, so you choose the correct brackets / fixings for the job, simples. Peo0lecoften turn up with whatever they’ve got left over / whatever saves them buying the correct stuff in, so question everything and settle for nothing less than the correct fixings and the job done properly. 

[Bozza]

Rationel windows are extremely heavy, so make sure you get them secured properly so yes to the straps.   My builder had to get load of blokes to get them installed.  Great product though you’ll not regret them,

 

Our external doors were also Rationel.  One of them developed a paint problem, started peeling after a year.  One quick form with photos, no quibble complete replacement under warranty.  This was not your question but just some reassurance regarding your chosen product.

[Roundtuit]

  On 02/02/2023 at 16:47, Nickfromwales said:

Usually indicates that the openings weren’t big enough for windows?

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Maybe, but the openings were as planned, with recommended tolerances all round (timber frame so easy to do), but the brackets were so inflexible that there was zero tolerance.  The jambs bowed in on a couple of windows in the first few days after fitting due to the leverage over time.  Rationel sent someone out to have a look, and judged that it was something the site fitting team would have been expected to anticipate and overcome.  So, a few windows needed re-fitting. Not a biggie in the scheme of things, but worth a thought.

[jayc89]

If fixing using lugs, should they be installed before or after, and therefore through, the reveal insulation (25mm PIR)? Before would be easier but presumably that would then act as a cold bridge?

[Dave Jones]

  On 05/02/2023 at 11:10, jayc89 said:

If fixing using lugs, should they be installed before or after, and therefore through, the reveal insulation (25mm PIR)? Before would be easier but presumably that would then act as a cold bridge?

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if you use straps dont forget to cover them in airtight tape after as well to seal (if your taping the windows of course).

[jayc89]

  On 05/02/2023 at 11:19, Dave Jones said:

 

if you use straps dont forget to cover them in airtight tape after as well to seal (if your taping the windows of course).

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So after the insulation and appropriate airtight detail? 

[Hilldes]

@jayc89 I have Velfac windows and bought a load of the proper lugs that Nick describes above. However, I did not use any of them and screwed through the frame in all cases. Whether you can use lugs depends on your wall build up. Mine is 140mm timber frame with 50mm deep battens then render board and thin coat silicon render (board and render about 20mm thick). If you want to set the windows back from the surface of the render by 40 to 50mm, then you may have to screw through the window frame because even the shortest lugs will be too long - with the lug screw holes missing the frame and extending over the insulation layer on the inside of the timber frame.

 

 

[jayc89]

  On 05/02/2023 at 14:39, Hilldes said:

@jayc89 I have Velfac windows and bought a load of the proper lugs that Nick describes above. However, I did not use any of them and screwed through the frame in all cases. Whether you can use lugs depends on your wall build up. Mine is 140mm timber frame with 50mm deep battens then render board and thin coat silicon render (board and render about 20mm thick). If you want to set the windows back from the surface of the render by 40 to 50mm, then you may have to screw through the window frame because even the shortest lugs will be too long - with the lug screw holes missing the frame and extending over the insulation layer on the inside of the timber frame.

 

 

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Thanks, these are going into a solid wall, 220-330mm in places, so 150mm lugs should fit fine.