New self builders - hi buildhub

[Beechgate]

Hi all,

 

We're at the start of our self build journey and were pointed to this forum by MBC timberframe (who we are thinking of using). Looks like a treasure trove of useful info and helpful folks, so looking forward to many happy hours of reading ahead!

 

Managed to purchase a plot last year (small bungalow on a fairly generous plot) so that hurdle is behind us.

 

Still wrestling with a couple of questions, but we're hoping to make our minds up shortly. If you have any thoughts or guidance please let me know!

 

1) Do we build a Passivehouse or just get close (I'm leaning towards the former if costs don't push us out of budget)

2) Do we go design and build (e.g. Potton) or work with an architect for design and go to a firm like MBC / Beattie passive to build. I think I prefer the second route but conscious of the extra cost an architect brings (some quotes we've had so far are eye-watering and I think duplicate work that someone like MBC does anyway)

3) Can we self project manage? Given our full time jobs / lack of experience I doubt we can do it properly alone - thinking we will work with a project manager to avoid paying the premium of a main contractor

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Bozza]

I was not working when we did our self build and pretty competent and knowledgable about some elements of building a house.  I could have easily project managed our build but didn’t, and went turn key.

 

As you know the closer you are to turn key/main contractor the more expensive it is.  But if something goes wrong it’s generally not your problem , it’s theirs.    Expensive mistakes can be made by those who don’t know what they’re doing.

 

what you could do is main contractor / turn key for the house but other element eg landscaping, out buildings, driveway things that are not critical to the house falling down yips could pm that yourself.

 

don’t forget if project managing it yourself you have to have financial resources, normally loans, to buy materials including vat.  Getting that vat back takes a while.  If you are using a MC etc that’s not a problem.  With interest rates being so high you are lending the VAT amount for a few years before you claim it back, but you can’t claim the interest rates back.

 

I would advise in your circumstance if you have a set budget build a bit smaller but with a MC or turnkey.

Not building to passive standard doesn’t mean building something bad.

 

 

 

[Blooda]

Can't comment on the timber frame, as we went brick and block, it's just what happens round here, I can see the Forterra brick factory from where I am typing this.  

 

We initially got turnkey quotes, which were as much as the house would be completed, and the PC sums were too low. 

 

We then PM'd it ourselves, I had been in Engineering Construction project management for 30 odd years, so we went for it, but it's not for everyone.

 

A turnkey contractor will own the risk so he will build that into their price.  The client will try to mitigate that by having a retention, but the contractor will just add that on to the final figure.  By PMing you need to manage the risk and indeed manage the outcome and take decisions that go against your principle, and will come out of your "risk pot" or the job will never get done.

 

So when you self project manage do you include the following in your scope ? 

1)write site induction

2)Give site inductions

3) Write construction phase plan.

4) Organise welfare facilities

5) Organise site security

6) organise site insurance, including public and employers liability.

7) organise warranty - if necessary

8. Write traffic management plan.

9) inform Planning your start date

10) Organise Building control.

11) Carry out Clients duty of care under CDM 

12)Award Principal Contractor. 

13) sort out first aid kit

14) Send out Drawings to prospective tenderers 

15) review quotes

16) negotiate.

17) Organise Services

18) organise temporary services if not available

19) Tell the nice [at the moment] neighbours you are starting the build

20) tell the neighbours, who complained about your planning permission you are starting.

 

Not trying for one moment to put you off, as it will be one of the most rewarding things you do.  But the list above is 20 things I just thought of quickly that we had to do  before we had put a spade in the ground [or been to screwfix 1000 times].

 

Good Luck and you'll find a lot of good advice here.

 

 

 

[Kelvin]

Checks list. I’ve done 19 of those and have barely put a spade in the ground. 

[Beechgate]

Thanks both - great insight. Definitely got a lot to think through and whether I can realistically commit to doing it - the idea/challenge is exciting but I need to be practical.

 

I think that using an MC or single firm (like MBC) to get to wind and waterproof stage will definitelty be the way forward. The question will be whether I then pick up from there, as I'd hope that the riskiest stage was done and any mistakes I made would be less likely to compeltely derail the project.

[Bozza]

6 hours ago, Beechgate said:

Thanks both - great insight. Definitely got a lot to think through and whether I can realistically commit to doing it - the idea/challenge is exciting but I need to be practical.

 

I think that using an MC or single firm (like MBC) to get to wind and waterproof stage will definitelty be the way forward. The question will be whether I then pick up from there, as I'd hope that the riskiest stage was done and any mistakes I made would be less likely to compeltely derail the project.

yes if you get the build watertight via a MC you can then PM the things that generally won’t result in the house falling down if you make mistakes that is a good hybrid option.  Don’t forget though things will take longer rather than via a MC so you need to factor in rental costs etc etc in addition to having to stand the VAT.  

[Kelvin]

7 hours ago, Beechgate said:

Thanks both - great insight. Definitely got a lot to think through and whether I can realistically commit to doing it - the idea/challenge is exciting but I need to be practical.

 

I think that using an MC or single firm (like MBC) to get to wind and waterproof stage will definitelty be the way forward. The question will be whether I then pick up from there, as I'd hope that the riskiest stage was done and any mistakes I made would be less likely to compeltely derail the project.

We elected to go timber kit with a supply and erect to weather tight contract for exactly these reasons. We’re also not using a main contractor for the rest of it and will be using local recommended trades and doing stuff ourselves. 

 

It can feel a bit overwhelming at times. I’ve had a few moments where I’ve thought what the hell have I done we could have bought a little cottage somewhere and I wouldn’t have any of this worry. However as long as you keep doing ‘stuff’ then things keep moving forward and you get closer to completion. I’ve had a productive day today for example with lots of decisions made and good progress. 

[markharro]

As someone who is using MBC Timberframe can I give them my vote. They are a 5* company to deal with. 100% professional and very efficient. Our circs are that finances mean that I am project managing. MBC will be as close to a MC as we'll have. Its good that they will lay the slab and then erect the kit house. We will then, through a combo of DIY and specialist labour, aim to finish the remaining.

 

We are about to start groundworks with MBC due on site in March. Comments from experience so far -

 

1 Project managing (with no prior experience) as well as my normal job is a taxing combination. And that's before I start labouring as well.

2 It literally takes 1000s of hours of research and there is a huge amount of future planning to have a chance of maintaining momentum.

3 The sheer amount of detail coupled with trying to master the rudiments of tech stuff is "challenging".

4 Remember that MBC don't take you to wind and watertight. After they leave I'll be on the room fitting plywood and then specialist roofers will fit zinc and flat roof waterproofing. The external wall cladding then needs done - again something I am aspiring to do. Then windows to get fitted.

5 On top of that I have to organise ASHP/MVHR/PV/electric and plumbing. We intend to try and do as much of the internal fit out ourselves but I am a bit concerned about how time consuming this will be.

 

The advantages of this approach are not insubstantial - (hopefully) more potential for a fine finish; prob a 6 figure cost saving; and ultimately a huge satisfaction in having played a substantial part in building the house we hope to spend many years enjoying.

 

Oh and its a passive house......in my maybe slightly biased view all new houses should aspire for this rating.

[Hilldes]

My timber frame was supplied by MBC. They are indeed great to work with, e.g. in the frame design stage, and were good value for money. There were however a number of challenges with our frame erection by MBC. Erection was spring 2021.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Hilldes

[deancatherine09]

We are in a VERY similar situation to markharro - in fact I could write an identical post to his ref our situation and the only difference is our MBC slab is week after next! We chose the MBC package as it hugely de-risked the project for us having one company doing foundation slab and TF. We've gone passive, yes it was £30k more but just made sense to us.

 

We both work full time and are PM'ing. It's time consuming and exhausting, coming home from work and doing hours of admin, but there are two distinct advantages in my book. One being the cost saving. The second (and potentially more significant one for us) is being able to set our own specifications, do our own quality control and select our own trades.

[markharro]

It can be fun at times too. Atm I am trying to work out how to legally instal an Apple Homepod mini in our bathroom - to be used for smarthome duties eg lowering blinds and music. 

[Beechgate]

Great to hear the positive reviews for MBC. My initial impressions were great, so it's nice to hear that backed up by people who've worked with them.

 

@deancatherine09 we're definitely leaning towards passive, but will have to make a final call once we have designs to cost more accurately. Out of interest, is that £30k premium vs their 'high performance range' and if so which of the 3 u-values they offer. I notice their best uvalue in that range is actually lower than the passive wall, so i suspect it must fall down in airtightness or thermal bridging somehow.

 

@Hilldes could you elaborate on the challenges you faced?

 

@markharro great insight, and a good call out about not being wind/watertight. I don't think I have the time / skill / confidence to take on as much of the work as you are intending to, so will definitely have to consider that in planning

[Thorfun]

You’ll get nothing but great reviews for MBC on here. Our friends had an MBC TF and I watched it going up and was very impressed. We would’ve gone with them but the fact we were having a basement and the wouldn’t do the foundations and we wanted to save money by insulating ourselves meant it wasn’t worth it. 
 

but….we also used the same chippie as our friends and he said he noticed some walls not plumb or square and some other slight issues that would only have been apparent later on in the build. Nothing he couldn’t overcome but thought I’d mention that they’re (and no one is) infallible. 
 

still, if I had my time again I’d pay the extra and go for the MBC twin wall TF. 

[MikeSharp01]

We have gone architect- self build - site stick built I-joist with specialist trades as we go for things I didn't feel I could do EG the roof slating - no head for heights. We wanted the architect, was good value I think standing in the spaces now, because we wanted to stand out yet fit into what it a very traditional street and have our exact needs - including future older age living built it. It has been slow but I enjoy just plodding along. We also chose to go full Passive House but probably won't go for certification as we are, for reasons we all know, over budget!  Even doing most of the work ourselves we won't come in close to the £1.2k/m2 (without the plot cost) we set ourselves in 2016 when we brought the plot. So I guess it is horses for courses.

[deancatherine09]

Yes, £30k over their high performance range. 280sqm (340 incl cinema room in loft) house. We said we would rather get the fabric of the building the best we could, and scrimp on final fixtures and fittings (that can be more easily replaced at a later date). We will probably end up with an eBay kitchen for a few years though 😅 although are in early 30's and plan to live in the house for the majority (if not all) of our lives hopefully, so time isn't such a huge issue.

[Hilldes]

13 hours ago, Beechgate said:

@Hilldes could you elaborate on the challenges you faced?

 

Challenges with our MBC erection:

1. Bulge in the rim board - basically where the floor cassette intersects the GF external wall and FF external wall, the rim board in locations were around 20mm proud of the external walls. Even when a layer 9mm OSB was removed there was still a significant proportion of the perimeter where the protrusion with around 10mm. This meant that many of the vertical battens for cladding had to be notched over the rim board.
2. One section of first floor gable wall was skewed relative to the GF wall below - so basically one end of the FF wall was proud of the GF wall below and the other end set back from the GF wall below. This meant the vertical batten for cladding had to be progressive planed at on end of the wall and then packed out at the other end. This coupled with 1 above basically doubled the effort required to fit the external vertical battens to exterior walls.
3. Anchors for vertical steels to foundation blockwork - expanding bolts were used as opposed to chemical. This caused foundation blocks to beak in a number of locations. I believe the erection team suspected the expanding bolts were not appropriate but used them because that was what had been supplied. This was resolved by MBC applying structural grout to cracked foundation blockwork.
4. One section of internal non load bearing wall - adjoining the stairs a section of wall that was had a diagonal section that ascended in line with the stairs. This was initially installed upside down and shot fixings through to the slab - fortunately the shot nails missed the UFH pipes embedded in the slab. 
5. Mix up with steels order, basically steels had not been ordered, so a 2 week delay on site while steels were manufactured. To be fair this did not have a great impact as we had planned 4 weeks for erection and it still completed in that time.

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Hilldes

[SteamyTea]

@deancatherine09

Not only the walls that need a better performance, the perimeter to area ratio and the wall to door/window ratio is important. Surface area to Volume ratio is probably the most important design consideration.

This can become a challenge is a Passivhaus because of architects/customers wanting 'loads of natural light" which can easily cripple performance.

 

Cutting back on the internal fittings is a good thing, kitchens and bathrooms have become style items, HA is probably the biggest waste of money at the moment, most of that will change in the next few years.

Edited January 29, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Beechgate]

2 hours ago, deancatherine09 said:

Yes, £30k over their high performance range. 280sqm (340 incl cinema room in loft) house. We said we would rather get the fabric of the building the best we could, and scrimp on final fixtures and fittings (that can be more easily replaced at a later date). We will probably end up with an eBay kitchen for a few years though 😅 although are in early 30's and plan to live in the house for the majority (if not all) of our lives hopefully, so time isn't such a huge issue.

 

We're a similar age and have a similar view, though we're thinking more like 200m2. We don't want to compromise on the fabric of the building or things that you can realistically only do once. Everything else we can add or upgrade over time

[Hilldes]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Cutting back on the internal fittings is a good thing, kitchens and bathrooms have become style items, HA is probably the biggest waste of money at the moment, most of that will change in the next few years.

 

HA = Home Automation? Our electricals came in at £31K, without the home automation elements it would probably have come in about half that figure. However... if we take the kitchen, it is the HA lighting that transforms the contract kitchen into something that looks much more special. Same with bathrooms, bedrooms. Overall, the HA was worth every penny.

 

It should be noted though that design and installation was largely done by me (professional spark for the 230v side).  I think it would have cost another £10 to £20k for a professional HA design & install.

[Iceverge]

Welcome @Beechgate

 

Passive house here. Concrete built. It was about €35k cheaper than MBCs timber frame which swung it. 

 

I had about 4 years of research done, did the design and specification myself. 

 

In hindsight a good architect would have been worth employing. But one who will really understand passivhaus, match your aesthetic preferences and really respect your budget will be very hard to find. 

 

We used a main contractor and did some work myself during covid. Passive house is tricky and some of the details need to be different from the norm. Expecting a contractor to change their system and learn on the job is not going to be without a time or effort cost. Luckily ours just left me get on with any of the strange details myself. 

 

I would start with what your realistic budget is. That will determine everything. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Papillon]

I’ve only helped self builders, I haven’t built a house (yet).

But I think if I were doing a self build, I’d get an architect for the initial concept (this should cost about 1k), but use a timber frame company and a contractor for the majority of the build. I would keep an eye on the final details myself as a project manager. 
 

Some timber frame places will do your planning for you, cheaply as they want you to buy a frame.

 

You can get a decent level of insulation from the timber kit, and a lot more help than from an architect for far cheaper. But lord, some of those designs by the timber frame companies are absolutely tragic. They really struggle with the initial design and also the final touches and detailing. 
 

Once they have done the frame they couldn’t give two hoots about how the outside looks, and most of their designers are really just technicians.