Flood doors

[MrsB]

Evening - I'm wondering who has experience of flood defence doors please. Until today we were under the impression our barn was to be built up to the correct height to avoid flooding. We are renovating and in keeping with the original building using wooden doors and windows. Now just before we were due to submit the plans the FDA has suggested using Stormguard flood doors in UPVC!

I'm totally confused, I can ask my builder and architect tomorrow for guidance but like to think of this venue as my come to place ?. I don't think white UPVC looks right in a barn - no way 

[lizzie]

6 minutes ago, MrsB said:

Evening - I'm wondering who has experience of flood defence doors please. Until today we were under the impression our barn was to be built up to the correct height to avoid flooding. We are renovating and in keeping with the original building using wooden doors and windows. Now just before we were due to submit the plans the FDA has suggested using Stormguard flood doors in UPVC!

I'm totally confused, I can ask my builder and architect tomorrow for guidance but like to think of this venue as my come to place ?. I don't think white UPVC looks right in a barn - no way 

cant you use flood boards (not diy ones) they allow you to keep your own doors and just put them out when needed.

Our previous house was very close to a river and in highest category flood zone. Because they made us build so high off the ground to compensate we never flooded when all around us did. The extra money was a huge cost at the time and sent us massively over budget but boy were we grateful in 2007 when all around were inundated but we stayed dry. We also had some really good things we stuck over airbricks when water was rising stopped water getting in.

 

There are specialist companies who are recognised and authorised offering all sorts of flood protection devices. Your local council or environment should have lists. There are more options than upvc doors.

 

[Russell griffiths]

Is the bigger issue working out why you are not building up to be out of the flood risk? 

If you thought you where going to be. 

If like us I have had to spend a fortune on a fra so would want to know the right answers. 

[MrsB]

@lizzie thank you, the guy suggested not using the flood boards you only put on when needed as they suggest to unwanted trespassers that you are away. Now I'm thinking a little more clearly,

We won't be seen from the road so what does it matter if they are on or off

Once we've renovated there will be no money for holidays ? 

UPVC is never going to get passed by the council on a barn

 

im questioning the possibility of flooding if we build up to the recommended height, as you say we can protect the air bricks etc. 

 

 

[MrsB]

7 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Is the bigger issue working out why you are not building up to be out of the flood risk? 

If you thought you where going to be. 

If like us I have had to spend a fortune on a fra so would want to know the right answers. 

 

Yes the bigger issue is why we are not building to the required height recommended by FRA, my understanding is the amount of soil needed to get it to that height. The council have agreed on a lower height on principal as it allows us to keep the barn roof shape (hipped) rather than change it to gable as proposed by our architect. 

My Fra update is £100 no small amount of cash but not disproportionate in comparison to the renovation. 

'I think I have to risk looking a fool and get answers tomorrow even at the risk of delaying planning being submitted! 

[Russell griffiths]

Oh misread are you a conversion rather than new build. 

[PeterW]

How much roof height would you lose if you lifted the floor up with a concrete slab ..?? I would seriously consider it - hard to comment without seeing it but leave a full height atrium at some point to give height to the build and drop to 2.2m ceilings. You can gain between floors by using shallower joists at closer intervals which can buy you 100mm. 

 

Time to challenge the architect ..!!

[MrsB]

6 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Oh miss read are you a conversion rather than new build. 

No worries, it's late @Russell griffiths I'm going to put down the iPad and resume tomorrow. Night all 

[Fallingditch]

Mrs B don't know if this helps but there are different approaches here.

 

I made the following post on the old site:

"I have just been through a painful learning experience with Environment Agency policies. I am also lowlying (zone 3a) at risk of coastal flooding. For my first design, the architect was informed by the EA that the ground floor would have to be built 1.2m above ground level. After some negotiation we agreed to have a split level house, with lower level at 600mm and ground floor at 1.2m. (I knew no better at the time so accepted it).

That build didn't happen (a future blog post will explain).

We are now on a brand new design (same site). But this time, I carefully read the published guides published by DCLG. They are:

The National Planning Policy Framework document from 2012, which sets out the principles for conducting the sequential and exception tests, and states, paragraph 102,

“For the Exception Test to be passed:” … “a site-specific flood risk assessment must demonstrate that the development will be safe for its lifetime taking account of the vulnerability of its users, without increasing flood risk elsewhere, and, where possible, will reduce flood risk overall.”
“National Planning Policy Framework – DCLG – March 2012”

And
“Improving the Flood Performance of New Buildings – DCLG – 2007” which says that if you are going to build a replacement dwelling, then you build to a strategy, and if water levels (including climate change) might be above 600mm , then it is entirely acceptable to adopt a water entry strategy (see page 9-10).

I submitted a Planning Application for the new build in early December with ground floor this time at 300mm. The Environment Agency objected. I used the above sources to justify my decision to adopt a water entry strategy. The Planning Dept accepted my arguments and awarded Planning Approval."

The point here Mrs B is that there is the option to say "by all means lets try and prevent the number of times floodwater gets it, but for those occasions when it does, lets try to make the building flood resilient".

 

Flood resilient means avoid carpets, soft furnishings, no electrics at low level, consider stainless steel kitchen units etc. I repeat this may be useful or it may not, but it does illustrate how there are different possible solutions out there.

[Ferdinand]

9 hours ago, MrsB said:

We won't be seen from the road so what does it matter if they are on or off

 

That would mean that people who came down for a nose and found you were away could then work in peace?

[MrsB]

1 hour ago, Ferdinand said:

 

That would mean that people who came down for a nose and found you were away could then work in peace?

True, that's why I like this group, you do get advice from every angle. I was meaning we could still put the flood doors on even if we were away but they would not be noticeable by everyone. Are you thinking that they are not as strong as the ones built into the door? 

[ToughButterCup]

@MrsB, in relation to your question: doors.

I used to live on quayside in Lancaster, right where the slave trade ships docked.

All the shops, pubs and houses along that road have some form of flood defence. Our block of flats had a separate additional flat-bottomed boat shaped GRP 'door' which us residents would put in its seating - a rubber framework on the outside edge of the door. When the threat had passed we just took it off and stored it at the back of the stor room. Never mind what it looks like, it's functionality is the key issue.

 

And while at one level the door was useful, it did nothing to prevent the upswell of water from other sources - especially  the drains: even though they had non-return valves (large cast iron one way doors really).

 

You can imagine in a block of flats (sorry sail lofts) how many minds were focused on solving the problem.

The best we could come up with  was

• Think of flooding as normal: plan for it
• Build a high door threshold (but observe Building Regs)
• Low windows need similarly high thresholds
• A post flood drainage plan is needed
• Make sure someone is always on duty looking for flood warnings - all year round
• For low rooms, make sure all the electrics are high up

There were a series of other things which I can't quite remember but I'm sure that somewhere you can get guidance on how to deal with the threat. I seem to remember the Environment Agency distributing fliers about the problem. That was some time ago now. I bet the system is better now than it was then.

[Ferdinand]

42 minutes ago, MrsB said:

True, that's why I like this group, you do get advice from every angle. I was meaning we could still put the flood doors on even if we were away but they would not be noticeable by everyone. Are you thinking that they are not as strong as the ones built into the door? 

 

I was just pointing out a downside. I am not clear what I would do except that in a new build resilience steps such as tiles floors, high up electrics and one way doors in the drains are obvious steps at relatively little extra cost.

 

i am a little familiar with towpath houses in Strand on the Green, in Kew. There they mainly have an up and down step and a Perspex flood board on top.

 

Of course, if you have a system that requires YOU to take action, and is not very resilient, you ( and your house) are in a mess if it floods while you are not there.

 

You can engage good neighbours and flood monitoring services etc, but at some point the system may hit its limit - neighbour may be rescuing granny or tibbles, for example.

 

So .. a judgement call.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

We had the option of lowering the floor height and fitting flood defences, or having it at least 1.5m above the once in one hundred years flood level.  I did look at lowering the site by around half a metre, just to make the drive less steep, but the cost of the ground works put us off.

 

However, what I did find was that there were some neat flood protection boards around that looked pretty easy to fit and didn't look obtrusive then not fitted.  The planners were OK about this as a solution.  There are some links below of the sort of things that are available.

 

When I was thinking about this, I also looked at things like one-way valves to go in waste pipes, to prevent flood water entering that way, and considered adding a deeper sump inside each door, where the door mat would fit, with a small pump to pump out any water that might leak through the door flood barrier.

 

http://www.floodtite.com/

 

http://www.floodshield.com/

 

http://www.floodgate.ltd.uk/

[Ferdinand]

40 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

We had the option of lowering the floor height and fitting flood defences, or having it at least 1.5m above the once in one hundred years flood level.  I did look at lowering the site by around half a metre, just to make the drive less steep, but the cost of the ground works put us off.

 

However, what I did find was that there were some neat flood protection boards around that looked pretty easy to fit and didn't look obtrusive then not fitted.  The planners were OK about this as a solution.  There are some links below of the sort of things that are available.

 

When I was thinking about this, I also looked at things like one-way valves to go in waste pipes, to prevent flood water entering that way, and considered adding a deeper sump inside each door, where the door mat would fit, with a small pump to pump out any water that might leak through the door flood barrier.

 

http://www.floodtite.com/

 

http://www.floodshield.com/

 

http://www.floodgate.ltd.uk/

 

The prices seem a little OTT.

 

A single 600x900 panel to protect a single 90cm door and frame things to attach it to, plus the seal, comes to between £250 and £400.

 

Given that they are basically plastic or steel, a couple of beads, a seal and a few screws, I would be wanting to pay about £75 max, though £50 feels nearer the mark to me.

 

Have I missed something, or is this a business opportunity waiting for an entrepreneur?

 

I can see big claims if it failed, but that should be insurance.

 

Ultra-niche market and made by hand?

 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Ferdinand

[Jeremy Harris]

They were pretty well made, or at least the one we saw at a show (may have been at the Swindon centre, I can't remember now) was.  The one we looked at was a GRP moulding, with an inset rubber seal, together with some fairly discreet fixings that fitted to the outside of the house.  I didn't think the price was too OTT, given the quality of the unit and the design, but it may well be that someone could come up with a cheaper solution.

 

I think the bigger problem is making other parts of the house flood resistant, things like sealing air bricks and underfloor voids, fitting one-way valves into all the waste and soil pipes, etc.

[Ferdinand]

Cheers @JSHarris.

 

Will have a look if I have a chance.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Ferdinand