worriedexpat Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Hi all, have just joined for some advice. We live abroad and hope to move home in a few years time. We are lucky enough to have a plot (south west UK) and have planning permission for a timber frame (almost) passivhaus (not planning on certification). Got a QS involved to keep project on track and cost estimate has come back 2.5x the budget we gave the architects! QS and Architects basically both saying they are right so I guess we go to tender and see what actual builders say. But realistically where do we go from here? We cannot go over our budget... Is it time to rip up the plans and start again?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Welcome ..! So 2.5x is a very big variation - first question would be did you tell the architect the budget..? Next questions would be what is the gross floor area, your budget, their prices and finally how do you plan to build ..? (Main contractor, manage yourself etc…?) Plans are always useful here too - just remove any personal info and addresses..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Materials have gone up in cost, not that much though. Your architect should have some remorse and reduce the size for you if it’s their fault… but honestly in my experience I draw things then the customer makes it larger and takes out walls so they need more steels every time. Easy fix, I’m sure you have realised, is to reduce your spec and don’t do Passivehouse level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Something's wrong here. And I bet the source of it is that you are abroad: not your fault. I lived in Berlin for years, but had property in the UK. Somehow when I was away, simple things got many orders of magnitude more difficult. A simple instruction to an agent would simply be ignored. The properties I owned were round the corner from the agent concerned: 100 meters or so. To me this 'smells' like the same type of problem. You can't just pop into the office to bollock someone. And they can always lie about their ability to pick up the phone. And, like it or not m Put some stick about: if nothing happens, rip up and start again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Last (and only) time an architect gave me a build price, I just went and built it myself for half his estimated cost. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ProDave said: .... an architect gave me a build price, I ... built it myself for half ... (the) estimated cost. Price tables like those in SPONS can't (and so don't) make allowances for highly experienced, highly motivated people like you (us ?) @ProDave. Its a bit like @nod going to an architect, and getting a price for his newbuild from the poor man (or woman) - I'd be able to hear Gary laughing from my place - 25 miles away. Edited January 24, 2023 by ToughButterCup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 I think an Architect's price comes under ballpark figure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worriedexpat Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) Hi all, thanks for your thoughts it's appreciated so to answer a few questions @PeterWYES we did give the architect a budget, then upped it a little based on their indicative price of 2000/m2 I of course am guilty of retail creep, a little extra room here and there... so the final floor space was 218m2 and QS indicates this would cost 4,646/m2 (do the maths.... ouch!!) The build route was to be a main contractor (as we are a long-haul flight away so really cannot do anything to help!) this was made clear from the beginning The land is tricky and requires a concrete raft to build on...which is currently estimated to consume a large proportion of the budget. This requirement was known before the architects were commissioned as we already had mining surveys done Performance is really important to us, not necessarily passivhaus, but close to, as the whole idea is to have something affordable to live in when we leave our overseas jobs (and can't afford to switch on the heating 😉 looking at the plans (and yes this had always been at the back of my mind) I see that the form isn't exactly the most price efficient ... so I would probably prefer to change the shape and size of the building before reducing the spec... But I guess that means going back to planning stage. All in all I just see a huge amount of money sunk into getting here, and now realizing we can't go ahead with this project as is. What are my options realistically? 1. go out to tender and hope the architect is right (maybe?!) 2. keep the plans as is but reduce insulation all round/change build materials... can I do this and still retain a well performing home? 3. change the form of the house, choosing the best balance between cost and performance in the build system - and suck up all the costs related to going back to the drawing board. If I do this I don't suppose there is any recompense from the architect? I wouldn't want to work with them on a new iteration unless they re-designed for free... @ToughButterCupYes, I think being away really hasn't helped.. I was unable to get home for 2.5yrs due to covid restrictions so was never proactive in keeping everything on track Any recommendations on the way forward would be appreciated! Edited January 25, 2023 by worriedexpat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Your QS is smoking crack That is the simplest design I’ve seen ..! use an insulated raft (Kore or similar) and you fix a lot of your issues. nice logical layout with upstairs over service / plant spaces What are the final finish materials ..? Is that driving the cost ..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Gray Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) Not sure if I am helping by adding my thoughts...new and only joined today but here goes. Our architect had a build budget of £450k for brick and block . 210m2 . This was on the higher end as he had started with £350k but we wanted a higher finish. We are also close to London. After tender the quotes came in at over £700k and outside of our budget if we wanted to remain in our current home during build. We then approached a well know Timber Frame specialist Potton - highly recommend them . UK based. They have their own designs/kit houses but equally work with your design of any kind. As we had already got planning (it was a difficult site) we didn't want a different design. We have signed now for a weather and water tight package (includes foundations, windows and roof) with Potton at is less than £300k. Their houses are super efficient and you can upgrade the spec with respect to passivhaus if wanted. We break ground 1st March If you want more detail happy for you to message me on here Edited January 25, 2023 by Mrs Gray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Gray Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 PS love your design. If you love it don't compromise and you will find a way. Ours is like a traditional cottage due to the impact on the historical value and significance of our current home. And so we were limited on what would be approved. Am grateful for what we have but equally everyday have peeps saying 'I thought it would be more grand designs'...hehehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 @Mrs Gray Is that £300k just to wind and weathertight? So you still have final roof and cladding to fit and then all the interior etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Gray Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 No the £300k includes the roof (its a specific tile set by planning so had no choice). Also this price includes windows and 3 bifold doors (all wooden again a planning condition). The windows and roof add up to approx £100k. Stairs to be fitted by others is £6.5k . The rest is the cost for the foundations, timber frame , its erection, insulation and some items as part of the package which will be fitted by others. We still have exterior cladding/render and all internal kit out to complete on top of this price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deancatherine09 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Go Timber frame. Our MBC timber frame is working out at about £765 per square metre including a passive raft. Yours is a simpler design than ours too! If you are abroad you will need to have a trusted main contractor working around and coordinating other trades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 36 minutes ago, Mrs Gray said: ... Stairs to be fitted by others is £6.5k .... To me, this looks like an area where you might save a good deal. How many stairs / stair ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worriedexpat Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 5 hours ago, Mrs Gray said: Not sure if I am helping by adding my thoughts...new and only joined today but here goes. Our architect had a build budget of £450k for brick and block . 210m2 . This was on the higher end as he had started with £350k but we wanted a higher finish. We are also close to London. After tender the quotes came in at over £700k and outside of our budget if we wanted to remain in our current home during build. We then approached a well know Timber Frame specialist Potton - highly recommend them . UK based. They have their own designs/kit houses but equally work with your design of any kind. As we had already got planning (it was a difficult site) we didn't want a different design. We have signed now for a weather and water tight package (includes foundations, windows and roof) with Potton at is less than £300k. Their houses are super efficient and you can upgrade the spec with respect to passivhaus if wanted. We break ground 1st March If you want more detail happy for you to message me on here Wow that seems reasonable... will get in touch with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worriedexpat Posted January 25, 2023 Author Share Posted January 25, 2023 7 hours ago, PeterW said: Your QS is smoking crack That is the simplest design I’ve seen ..! use an insulated raft (Kore or similar) and you fix a lot of your issues. nice logical layout with upstairs over service / plant spaces What are the final finish materials ..? Is that driving the cost ..? Ok, I really hope so ... he admits hes been cautious on a few things and can reduce some finishes for us... but could he really be that far out? I've included the summary and some breakdown on costings thanks for the link to Kore - I'll ask them for a quote and see if thats a potential place for savings... Is a timber building, with lambswool insulation, clad in slate (1st floor) and timber (ground floor). polished reinforced concrete slab for ground floor, engineered hardwood first floor, sedum roof. No fancy kitchen or bathrooms. internal finish quoted for clay plaster. I know there are some things that can be compromised on in finishes. We want to keep the layout if at all possible, think the key will be to change the build system/spec to something cheaper but what will that be to still perform well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) That’s mentally expensive. Our groundsworks, for example, including a 25m retaining wall, large garage foundation, similar sized house, and all drainage is £47k. This is on a slope so needs a bit more levelling and a longish driveway formed. £17k for internal doors? How many doors are there and what are they made out of? Etc. You could half this cost I reckon if shopped about a bit without trying too hard. Edited January 25, 2023 by Kelvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterW Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Bonkers Numbers !!! How much did you pay him ..? £43k for mechanical installations ..?? £36k for electrical ..?? You can do those both for less than 20% of that ..!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Something is wrong here. Are you still overseas? Many people think self-builders are made of money. Time to tell it like it is: this is all too expensive to the extent that the p!$$ is being taken. £4K + per square meter is pure fantasy - nonsense bollocks piss-takery. Many of us are on under £2k per square meter. @nod is on under 1k ish, I'm on just under 2 with my set of ferkups. Most are are roughly in the 1.5, 1.8 region. Rip it all up, start again. Face to face, sleeves rolled up, and no bloody nonsense. If you are abroad, get yerself over here for 6 months, and put some stick about: save yersel' £100K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 @worriedexpat Where in the SW you building, and is the Architect local to it? West Country is now a stupidly large area, seen Oxford called The West Country, and Swindon has been for years. I think Bristol is in the SE, but then it is 200 miles away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattg4321 Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I’ve got my own electrical company in SE England and this sort of build is something we often get involved in. £36k is possible, but only if the spec is very high - Lutron or something like that, with AV, CCTV, data etc run everywhere and a load of outside lighting etc. In reality half that amount should be enough to get a very good spec. If it was basic, 4x sockets in each room, centre light and downlights in kitchen and bathrooms then much less again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Is the QS charging a % of the cost as their fee or is it a fixed cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Jones Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 (edited) ditch timber frame and go traditional brick and block. Save you 20% straight away. £2k m2 bare minimum NOT including foundations, utiliities, sewer, drive etc etc Edited January 26, 2023 by Dave Jones 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfun Posted January 26, 2023 Share Posted January 26, 2023 your foundation costs are pretty much half of what it cost me to build a 120m2 basement sitting on an insulated raft as well as the foundations for the rest of our structure. those QS costings seem crazy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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