Next door's retaining wall bulging, they wont fix it, court action costs?

[PXR5]

17 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Remove the roots on your land. Put in a root barrier. Build your wall. Make the Mexicans pay for it. 

The roots are behind their retaining wall in their land..

I have P'permission for the house.

Im not a developer, but Im a keen self builder, fixer upper of machines/ trucks etc.

I suspect they might just move before I need to start my build..........

[ToughButterCup]

13 hours ago, PXR5 said:

Back to the main question of my post, given that their tree / bush roots have clearly caused the wall to bulge, surely its down to them to get it repaired?

 

Thats not the main question  - very far from it. The problem is much deeper than that.

 

The key issues here are attitudes to problem solving, and having sufficient  humility and emotional intelligence  to work with other people: difficult people by your own description. 

 

Lets see if I've got this right. 

Two groups of people, who don't get on with one another, are in dispute about a wall. If nobody does anything at all, over time, the wall will collapse. If nothing is done about that, you will lose some benefit from the land.

 

Now, there is a choice between;

 

Do nothing

Argue the matter in the courts

Rebuild the wall yourself

Rebuild the wall with your neighbour

 

The first choice means everyone loses

 

The second choice means everyone loses and everyone pays a lawyer's mortgage for a month or two.

 

Third: you spend some money and time, probably less than a lawyer's fees.

 

In the third choice, you get a grip of your own emotions, and start to build a relationship with your neighbour. Little steps. Over time. And in maybe a year or two, you might just be able to agree to work on the project together. Maybe even share the cost.

 

Who knows, you might even make another friend. It'll be hard. But you'll be proud of yourself. You'll have achieved something rare.

 

A victory in the fight you have with yourself.

For all of us, that fight is the only fight worth having.

Edited January 10, 2023 by ToughButterCup

[ProDave]

13 hours ago, PXR5 said:

Thanks for the replies, the land is not big enough for me to lose any area. I've offered to help them resolve the problem, they dont want to know.

So what elase can I do? Im not going to lose land or pay for their wall.  

 

I am starting to question if the plot is big enough to build on.  I would certainly want at least a 1 metre walkway between the house wall and the boundary.  At least 2 very slim retaining wall options have been posted that would not take up much of the 1M walkway and allow the build to proceed without dispute.

 

It now seems you are implying you need to build up to the boundary, so you really are into proper retaining wall that will also be the foundation of the house.  You would expect that to be built on your land and I would not expect the neighbour to contribute to that.  With a PWA that could go right up to the existing wall and you could end up with your house wall on top of this new retaining wall very close to the boundary, if that is really what you seek.

[Temp]

If building that close check how the Party Wall Act applies. I know it applies when excavating near neighbours buildings but I haven't looked to see if it applies to garden/retaining walls.

[PXR5]

1 hour ago, ToughButterCup said:

 

Thats not the main question  - very far from it. The problem is much deeper than that.

 

The key issues here are attitudes to problem solving, and having sufficient  humility and emotional intelligence  to work with other people: difficult people by your own description. 

 

Lets see if I've got this right. 

Two groups of people, who don't get on with one another, are in dispute about a wall. If nobody does anything at all, over time, the wall will collapse. If nothing is done about that, you will lose some benefit from the land.

 

Now, there is a choice between;

 

Do nothing

Argue the matter in the courts

Rebuild the wall yourself

Rebuild the wall with your neighbour

 

The first choice means everyone loses

 

The second choice means everyone loses and everyone pays a lawyer's mortgage for a month or two.

 

Third: you spend some money and time, probably less than a lawyer's fees.

 

In the third choice, you get a grip of your own emotions, and start to build a relationship with your neighbour. Little steps. Over time. And in maybe a year or two, you might just be able to agree to work on the project together. Maybe even share the cost.

 

Who knows, you might even make another friend. It'll be hard. But you'll be proud of yourself. You'll have achieved something rare.

 

A victory in the fight you have with yourself.

For all of us, that fight is the only fight worth having.

The problem is though, that they wont remove their tree / bushes & expect me to affectaly give up 2 feet of my land  that I can not afford to loose.

Also, these people have recently had a new fence errected at the very end of the boundary between us & have had the fence installed several inches onto my land, no big deal  but why do that, why think that doing so is ok, how can you work with such people?

When I offered to help push back the bulges in their wall, he declaired that the wall was probabily built that way? how can you get on with such cretins?

Edited January 10, 2023 by PXR5

[ProDave]

20 minutes ago, PXR5 said:

When I offered to help push back the bulges in their wall, he declaired that the wall was probabily built that way? how can you get on with such cretins?

You ignore them and build your own slim design of retaining wall as already suggested.  I fail to see what other option you have. without it getting very nasty, very expensive and taking a very long time.  And you don't want to fall out with them if you might need a party wall agreement at some stage.

 

Your choice.

[PXR5]

Yeah I agree, but I dont think things can get much worse between us. This all stems from the fact that they wanted my garages & recent the fact they carnt have them.

[Kelvin]

Well it sounds like a nightmare neighbour scenario. No way would I want to build a house there knowing all that unless it was far enough away from their boundary that I could put up my own boundary screening and never know they were there. 

[Mr Punter]

On 09/01/2023 at 13:24, ProDave said:

Does anyone know of such a sysatem, it would seem ideal for this case, easy to install and would not take up much of @PXR5 garden.

 

EDIT here is a picture from streetview of the wall I am refering to:

 

 

That looks like a King Post wall

[Mr Punter]

If the wall does collapse - which may take several years or not happen at all - I cannot see what would compel your neighbour to rebuild or replace it.

[ToughButterCup]

2 hours ago, PXR5 said:

... how can you get on with such cretins?

 

By regarding the 'cretin' as your neighbour. As of value (even though you don't think he's worth a fart in a cullender) 

 

That ( '...its probably built this way...') is where he /she is.  Its a starting point.

 

What single thing do you think you could do to bridge the gap between you?

 

Break the 'job' into really small bits.

Just a tiny thing .. maybe a smile, a cheerful 'good morning'. 

 

 

I'm sorry but I haven't got the time to go into much detail. May I suggest you do a bit of reading on Conflict Resolution

 

(Here's a search for you to look at when you've got time)

 

Tiktok do a great series of videos on conflict resolution too

 

 

[ProDave]

8 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

That looks like a King Post wall

Indeed it does, I knew someone would know the correct name.

 

More information here. https://retainingwallsolutions.co.uk/king-post-retaining-walls/

 

It would be my choice in this situation.

[Bozza]

1.   Start over,  mediation can work,  if you don’t want to mediate that makes you look as bad as them.   If they refuse to mediate it makes them look bad.https://www.gov.uk/how-to-resolve-neighbour-disputes/use-a-mediation-service.  

 

2.  If you are building for profit, absorb the costs to sort the wall if is is problematic to your build.  Delays will cost you due to inflation.  It might be their responsibility but it’s you that has a problem with.

 

3.  Solicitors love this stuff it is a cash cow.  Regardless how legally or morally correct you may be with the dispute sometimes it’s just best to walk away from a conflict like this for the greater good of your health and wallet.  I follow a mantra of what goes around come around with genuinely horrible people.  
 

4.  Recently a chap murdered a couple over a parking dispute. Is it really worth it?

 

 

[PXR5]

Thanks for all the comments, the house they have has no off road parking, clearly they purchased the house thinking they were going to get my garages . Since Ive lived here many people have lived in that house & moved on, its not very good.

I would not be suprised if they sold up & moved on at some point, I'll just sit tight & see how it goes. I'm not going to be friendly, I think that would be a mistake.

[Kelvin]

Trying to be reasonable and the bigger person (not necessarily friendly) is rarely ever a mistake. 
 

Buy the house next time it comes up for sale. Problem solved. We have one near neighbour. She died a few months ago and the house is sitting empty. We are considering approaching the family later this year with an offer to buy it. It’s in a right state internally but has an acre of land and a bit of potential. 

[George]

Why not just raise the ground level - there will be plenty of spoil looking for a home during the build. Then you keep access right up to their fence.

[Gus Potter]

@PXR5

 

Pity that you have this issue.. but you have started a great thread. The responses you have had are really informative (for me also), BH folk chipping with invaluable experience and advice. For me to all who have chipped in .. a big thank you, learnt loads and given me food for thought too.

 

I can't think of anything I can meaningfully contribute to the legal side / just general great advice and input and so on.

 

Other than this.

On 10/01/2023 at 09:30, ToughButterCup said:

Little steps. Over time.

 

This made me think.. what sort of things could other BH members do if faced with a similar situation and what might be a first small step you could take without aggrevating the situation. One might be.. how do you get something that is a bit of initial formaility to let your neighbours know that you are actively considering your own and importantly their circumstances... if you can show that you have been reasonable and proactive then if later it goes legal this will give weight to your side of the argument.

 

The objective (test of reasonable) is to say... hey I can forsee a possible problem and I want to protect avoid risk (= cost) to us both.

 

Now with things like retaining walls that are bulging.. they tend to slowly destabalise until some, usually environmental event, tips the balance and causes what can be a sudden and dangerous collapse. That could be wind / heavy rainfall / loss of tree root / vegitation stability. A non environmental event would be where someone say piles bulk bags of gravel on the high side of the retained ground or drives a digger up close to the fence. We would often call that a surcharge load. For all if you are designing a basement / retiaining wall we often allow for 10kN/ sq m surcharge loading (1 tonne per sq metre on the finished level of the ground).

 

@PXR5 You could start out with your own survey.. as time is on your side you could probably do this without say an SE / Geotechnical Engineer.

 

First thing to do is take some good record photographs from ground level. These should be panoramic and detailed. Detailed would include parts of the wall where bricks are obviously displaced, where the mortar is clearly falling out of the joints or where roots are growing out the mortar. The key here is to be able to reference the panoramic photos to the detailed ones. The way to do this is imagine you posted the lot on BH.. ask yourself.. would we be able just from the photos to see where the displaced bricks are in relation to the panoramic photos. You tell a story using the photos and present a cogent argument.

 

Ideally you may know someone who has a drone. It does not have to be high tech. Fly it up to the boundary line and take plan photos. It's a good time of year (winter when I write this) as you can see what trees are deciduous and what are say Leylandi.. the evergreen trees and shrubs. This is really helpful. The canopy size of the evergreens is easier to determine when the deciduous trees are not in leaf.

 

Next try and get you hands on a surveyors staff. They have cleary marked graduations that can turn out well in photos unlike a measuring tape, it also looks the part.. a proper staff. Fly the drone down a bit and photograph horizontally.. square on at mid height of the staff.  Fly up and take photos level (or as close as you can) with the top of the staff. With a bit of maths if pushed this can give you an approximation of the tree height working from ground level. Objective is to establish roughly the height of the  vegitation / trees. You can do this from ground level but you could you have perspective to take into account. If you can't get a drone then you can do this from ground level but it is a bit more complex.

 

On the drone.. do not put any photos in any communication that are taken beyond your boundary.. or you may be subject to a "peeping tom allegation" but you may not want to delete any that have been taken accidentally.. the key here is to mindful of the data protection act.

 

Next as time is on you side to some extent wait until spring then repeat. This all sounds a bit complicated.. but what you are doing is to establish the vegitation profile. In the spring once the leaves develop you can start to identify what kind of trees / vegitation is planted on the neighbours side and you have a record of it.

 

In summary we are trying to record; vegitation height / canopy spread and species. From that we can predict the future growth and how the root growth may impact on the wall. That is what we need to know as SE's say.

 

The above is a long winded way of what the NHBC provide in their design guidance or maybe I have expained how the NHBC guidance can be applied in real life?

 

Next we ask.. how much and how fast are the neighbours trees / vegitation likely to grow? Now that is important as if you want to build a house say we need that information to design the house founds. We also need to know if your neighbours decide to cut down a big tree next to the boundary especially if you house found is only a metre from the boundary. When designing your house found I want to know if trees have been cut down near the boundary on your neighbours side.

 

Turning back to the retaining wall. What we are trying to do is to get a handle on what impact your neighbours planting may have on the retaining wall looking forward. It could be that the trees / shrubs are old and about to die.. thus the movement you see may reduce / stop.. or they could be in their strong junevenile stage and have strong root growth... like teenage kids.. growing every where and trying to take over.

 

Once we have identified canopy size / vegitation type and age then we have some info. We also need to know a bit about the type of soil / water table and so on.. but if I start on that I'll be writing all night.

 

In the round though this is important as the problem may not in fact get significantly worse! which could be good news.  Identifying what could happen should drive your strategy to some extent and how you couch your findings / approach your neighbours.

 

Next we need to look at the existing retaining wall construction. Ok the photos should pick up the root growth / weathering of the mortar and so on but we need to look at how much it is off the plumb / possibly unstable.

 

Get a string line and run it say 200 mm tight off the bottom line  of the wall from end to end of the boundary wall corners. Do the same at the top. Don't do it on a windy day. At each end plumb the top and bottom line so they are vertically in alignment. DON'T use a spirit level.. use a plumb bob and photograph how you set it up. Take the time to get this spot on. You could use a lazer.. but again this can be easily challenged in terms of accuracy.

 

If you use a spirit level then the first thing folk will say.. is your spirit level accurate.. saying.. I bought it new from B & Q won't cut the mustard in court! Go old schoool use the plumb bob all photographed. Make sure the photos show exactly how you have set up the top and bottom lines.  Now you have a top and bottom datum to work to. Next get a straight edge and measure back to the face of the wall and the fence posts etc. Do this say at 3.0 m centres.. allows you to average things.. then take local measurements (odd centres) where the wall is clearly bulging but ALSO where the wall looks ok.. you must be impartial here. Now you draw / calculate a profile of the wall and can identify the real problem areas and compare with part of the wall that may be ok. You may well find that the problem areas coincide with cetrain trees?

 

Now the above will take a bit of time and effort. But if I was acting for you I would want to gather the same info as any another Surveyor / technical bod would say..

 

The difference between you and I when acting in a professional capacity is folk can argue that my word (SE type hat on) carries more weight that yours cf you with long standing service / good personal reputation in the local the community.

 

To easily resolve this you'll need a "helper" to help you take all these measurements. So long as you work together you can both put your hand on your hearts (the witness) and say.. we did not fudge the results as we relied on first principles.. like a string line and a plumb bob and took photos = someone like me.. Gus. Just don't pick a helper that has a conviction for fraud.. I'm sure you don't associate with the like.. just having a laugh.

 

In summary you may ask.. but I'm not an SE /other professional bod.. so what.. if you think about it.. you can do a lot on your own.. looking / thinking, measuring in a recognised way and recording what you find.

 

Next do a small report.. could be a couple of pages with an appendix with loads of photos. You may know someone that can make it look " more official in terms of presentation"

 

Report.. Keep it factual and really simple. Avoid elaboration in any way as you can dig a hole for yourself if you get carried away. Stick to your comfort zone, the skills you have and avoid stepping into say SE / Geotech areas.. photograph and report what you observe ..don't try and interpret your findings.

 

Report starts with an objective. Objective is to understand how much the wall is bulging and how straight it is.. you don't have to go all SE and say.. too much leaning over /unsafe blah blah..  you are just establishing the profile of the wall. Do not turn the report into what is acalled an interpretive report.. this is where you start to draw conclusions from what you have found / measured.

 

That the report has been prepared based on the fact that you are intending to construct a dwelling within say one metre of the boundary. You are concerned that in doing so you may have to cut the "structural roots" of their trees.. ( pretty sure you are within your rights here just like if I had put the found of my extension on your land.. over to the experts on English law here).

 

Also that as this is intended to be a dwelling house their wall must not pose a safety risk to the dwelling and use of.

 

Next you say.. we have established the tree  / shrub height,  canopy and species based on observations from our side of the boundary.

 

Lastly you write a bit of conclusion which from what you are saying is:

 

1/ The wall appears to have deteriorated and this could be as a result of not least a lack of maintenance by you (based on your stated claim of ownership) coupled with the apparent detrimetal impact of ongoing growth of the vegitation and trees on your side of the boundary. You are not interpreting here.. you are saying .. it looks like these are things that could be an issue.

 

2/ My initial findings based on limited information I have gathered is that the vegitation / trees ect on your side of the boundary will likely result in the wall for which you are responsible deteriorating further... It may be that you find that the trees etc are old and dying.. so that could become a mute point. Think carefully and identify if their trees etc are really a big problem.

 

3/ Lets say you find that the trees are vigorous.. growing like fury.

 

First point is that you now have a record so you say.. here is the record.. it's your wall / trees etc not mine. But in the interest of public safety this is a potential issue for the "owner of the wall". Leave it at that as they will quickly twig that there could be some liability racking up on their account.

 

4/ Say that these are your provisional findings.

 

Arrange as you see fit and put that in a "report".

 

Next do a covering letter which says something like.. as well as being really nice to them..as you really want them to come to the table and be good neighbours and you want that kind of relationship also.

 

Here is what I have found / measured. I want to get on and want to identify and resolve any potential issues. Here is my report. Unless I hear from you in 4 ( about 21 working days) weeks then the measurements and photographs must stand for record purposes.

 

Here what you are doing is affording them the opportunity to engage with you. If they challenge your findings it will probaby cost them a bit as they will probably need to involve a professional.. unless they too are on BH say!. If they don't respond then you can say.. well I take it you have accepted my measurements.

 

It may be that if you put together a good looking evidence based report coupled with a pleasant covering letter they will see the light.

 

I don't think you can lose as the report you produce is evidence based and asks questions. Part of the intent is to sow doubt in their mind and makes them think.. hey this could be a bit costly for us if we keep being "difficult neighbours" .. it gets them thinking.. our structural tree roots should not really be on other folks land.. if our trees fall on someone else.. the Police / HSE  could be at our door?

 

The factual report is one part.. the way you finesse the covering letter is probably the key.

 

The above is one appoach to getting difficult neighbours to "see the light" .. what you are doing is measuring/ photographing and giving them the opportunity to respond in a like for like manner.. which probably means they have to stick their hand in their pocket also.

 

You basically say put up or shut up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Gus Potter

[PXR5]

Wow!, thats great info, thank you very much for taking the time to write that out.

I'll get on with it.

Appreciate  your comment! thanks..

[Dave Jones]

a morning with a 5 ton machine, dig out all the bulging wall and grade it back into their side to stop it slumping again. Dump all the spoil their side as well.

 

Any trees that are not covered by a TPO cut right back to your boundary, send the wood back to them.

 

They cant stop you or make you do anything without taking you to court which from the sounds of it they are not in a position to do. 

 

Then fence your side as you want.

[Onoff]

On 09/01/2023 at 12:43, PXR5 said:

shame it will look so bad from their windon.

I plan to start the work in 3 years time, perhaps the wall will collapse & they will then have to repair it.

 

When the wall does fall down they'll hit you with pictures taken from said window and say that your plant (digger, dumper, whatever), caused it. 

[PXR5]

The last two comments, can you explian what you mean????

[PXR5]

3 hours ago, Onoff said:

 

When the wall does fall down they'll hit you with pictures taken from said window and say that your plant (digger, dumper, whatever), caused it. 

I know that's their game plan, I've taken pics & have had people confirm whats going on, I'll also do as Gus Potter has said in his excellent post.

[Onoff]

47 minutes ago, PXR5 said:

I know that's their game plan, I've taken pics & have had people confirm whats going on, I'll also do as Gus Potter has said in his excellent post.

 

Main thing is to do something and not sit on the fence...

[Kelvin]

6 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Main thing is to do something and not sit on the fence...

Don’t sit on the wall. It might fall down 

[Kelvin]

55 minutes ago, PXR5 said:

I know that's their game plan, I've taken pics & have had people confirm whats going on, I'll also do as Gus Potter has said in his excellent post.

That wall doesn’t look like it’s going to fall down anytime soon. So if that’s your game plan then it’s the wrong one. Of course it might but if it doesn’t and you do nothing then build your house and then it falls down you’ll have a bigger more difficult problem to deal with.