Rainwater Harvesting - solutions from RainWater Harvesting Ltd

[Dave and Helen]

Hi, 

 

We're about to start our earthworks in January, clearing our building plot ready to start the remaining groundworks including the drainage.

I've been discussing suitable shallow tank solutions from a company, aptly called RainWater Harvesting Ltd - https://www.rainwater-harvesting.co.uk

They seem to have a suitable solution for us, and are currently offering an end of year offer, 7500l tank for the price of a 5000l.

 

I'd like to know if anyone on this forum has had any experience of working with this company and their products? 

 

Kind regards

 

Dave C

[Dave and Helen]

So has no one on here used this company's products before, as I've not received any comments? 

 

I've been doing some of my own research and the only feedback I've seen is on Trusted Reviews and a few old comments from Google. 

Whilst their customer service is heavily praised, there are a lot of comments about faulty pumps. Reading a bit more, the pumps are manufactured by their sister company, so it's unlikely they'll have an alternative. 

 

I've dropped them an email to ask why so many issues seem to relate to faulty or failed water pumps. 

 

I'm keen on Rainwater Harvesting's solution, as it's a complete solution and they've been gong for years, and by the sound of it provide good customer service... it's just the pumps that are questionable. That aside, have any of you used an alternative rainwater harvesting product?

 

Kind regards

 

Dave C

[Jenki]

HI, If you search on here, you wont find many people endorsing rainwater harvesting.  

some have installed and wouldn't again etc... I was planning on rain water harvesting, but I'm leaning towards soakaway and spending the money on insulation.  There is a blog on here (cant remember who possibly @Marvin) with a DIY version and good results. good luck.. 

[PeterW]

So by the time you’ve finished it’s £4K, plus internal filters and other bits. That’s about 20 years payback assuming you don’t have to replace any parts.

 

£4K gets you pretty much a full 4kWp solar system that pays back in 5 years at todays electricity rates.

 

I have a pair of buried IBCs, total system cost of about £150 with the jet pump and that’s for garden only. 

[SteamyTea]

On 28/12/2022 at 15:43, Dave and Helen said:

7500l tank for the price of a 5000l

They are offering you a size they have in stock, not a deal.

 

Payback on a RWH system is really dependant in how much you pay for your water and waste, I pay the most for it the country, and it is a poor service. Had more water disconnections than electricity ones.

Anyway, no one looks at payback on kitchens or bathrooms.

RWH should be thought of as 'doing the right thing' rather than a monetary gain.

 

£4k in a £400k house is 1% of the value, so keep the price in perspective.

Edited December 30, 2022 by SteamyTea

[saveasteading]

I've put in 2  in business premises. Both had pump failures. That aside the payback was 7 years  based on water savings.

Except that there are electric running  costs, unmeasured, and the duplicate plumbing cost was never split out.  Drains longer too?

So 10 years,  and I think that is exceptional.

The roof was 700m2 and all fed to

the 10m3 tank.

How are you going to fill with 7.5m3 of rain? I don't know your project but say 150m2 of roof all going to the tank. It will fill with 50mm of rain, so no problem on the west coast, but not so good on east.

 

BTW both tanks now redundant as owners/ tenants won't fix the pumps

 

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Anyway, no one looks at payback on kitchens or bathrooms.

RWH should be thought of as 'doing the right thing' rather than a monetary gain.

This is more about having something which COSTS money vs saves it. 
You need a kitchen, RWH is a trinket. 

[Kelvin]

We looked at it as other half was keen (I wasn’t) We eventually crossed it off the list for all the reasons mentioned plus the added complexity in your plumbing system. 

[Nickfromwales]

Just type “rainwater” and “RWH” into the search engine and there’s loads to read here about this subject  

 

As said, by myself and others, buy more PV!! In 10 years time you’ll be kicking yourself that you didn’t. Cost of electricity then will be the concern, plus guess what the RWH pump runs on……

[Thorfun]

On 28/12/2022 at 15:43, Dave and Helen said:

Hi, 

 

We're about to start our earthworks in January, clearing our building plot ready to start the remaining groundworks including the drainage.

I've been discussing suitable shallow tank solutions from a company, aptly called RainWater Harvesting Ltd - https://www.rainwater-harvesting.co.uk

They seem to have a suitable solution for us, and are currently offering an end of year offer, 7500l tank for the price of a 5000l.

 

I'd like to know if anyone on this forum has had any experience of working with this company and their products? 

 

Kind regards

 

Dave C

 

i bought from rainwaterharvesting.co.uk and dealt with Rob there. Very good customer servicing and to deal with. i liked their Rain Director hardware that supported a 'holiday mode' which would flush the header tank and replace with mains water and stuff like that. our tank is in the ground as is currently full and overflowing as it's not been connected up to the house as yet.

 

i can recommend them as a company to deal with and the product looks good but as it's not functional yet i can't advise on the longevity or functionality of it.

 

hope this helps.

[Jenki]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

RWH is a trinket. 

😂

[saveasteading]

I am very serious about rainwater use and and drainage, yet would hesitate to specify a RWH on my own property, let alone someone else's.

Done it, would do it again ...but

 

If you are off mains then of course this changes everything.

If on mains water...use it throughout.

 

RWH is done for plaudits more than for saving money and measurably helping the environment.

Payback in money or carbon can be proven either way....but hassle is not measured, and neither is the nice feeling for doing 'a good thing'.

 

I am more inclined to put in lots of barrels for garden and car-wash use, and a pond to create wildlife, stop rain-water going to the sewage system or add to  floods.

 

I can see the attraction of a RWH, and I was very pleased with ours...until the pump broke down, and then again.

Also it was an office so toilet use was high and potable use low.  Potable water cost £30 per annum, and also caused much reduced sewage rates. 

I hadn't thought that through when answering earlier. For a house I would say that it would be money and carbon negative...ie not helping the world.

But something to tell the friends, and a private store of water in times of drought.

If awards are going...then this is something that panels understand (worked for me) whereas barrels and soakaways and ponds leave them unimpressed.

 

Do ask your plumber the extra cost for the parallel system to flush toilets.

 

I am not against RWH...just experienced and interested.

 

I am assuming that your interest is environmental rather than on cost. What are you doing environmentally re drainage? No/ minimal rain to the sewage system or streams should be your target.

[Nickfromwales]

20 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

But something to tell the friends, and a private store of water in times of drought.

Nope, lol. In times of drought you’d have used it up before you knew you needed it. 
 

Actually, it would be a 1/3 full with potable water ( then rendered cat5 ) where the top up had already occurred because of the lack of rain. 
 

I quite liked the idea, but stopped my clients spending their money as it just doesn’t add up on paper, unless installing at least 10,000L of storage. Then I’d buy the cheapest pile-o-shart pump I could stoop to, and hope it lives as long as possible 😛

[Marvin]

5 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Just type “rainwater” and “RWH” into the search engine and there’s loads to read here about this subject  

 

As said, by myself and others, buy more PV!! In 10 years time you’ll be kicking yourself that you didn’t. Cost of electricity then will be the concern, plus guess what the RWH pump runs on……

Sadly no room for more PV unless I use the north facing roof but our RWH runs on 12 volt system with 2 panels on the shed. 

[SteamyTea]

3 hours ago, saveasteading said:

RWH is done for plaudits more than for saving money and measurably helping the environment.

Is that because we are not doing it at scale and not measuring the benefits correctly.

 

The rainwater that falls onto my roof and parking area runs directly into the main sewage system, along with the kitchen sink, washing machine, bath, shower and toilet waste.

It then flows under the street, collecting all the neighbours waste, into a larger pipe, then gets pumped inland for 6 miles to the treatment plant.

Now get this, it then gets pumped 6 miles again, to the sea.  I assume that a lot of the road surface water is also being mixed in with the domestic waste water, and probably business waste as well (there is a large laundry company not too far away).

Now if I was to collect say 30% of the rain run off from my property and use, directly, 50% of that, that would take fair bit of load of the local sewage system, and would be less pumping.  The other 15% (50% of the collected 30%) could be slowly released into the general sewage system, rather than flooded in during high rainfall.  This would reduce costs as less pumping and large scale holding would be needed, and hopefully reduce the number of major spillages (we have a lot, Portreath does not smell of seaweed, it is not mud washed into the sea at St. Agnes, and I have stopped telling people in Penzance harbour that it is full of shit, but that is because they park badly and are boring twats, cold water swimmers are the new vegans).

So without measuring, and putting a price on those small advantages, it is hard to say if there is genuine saving and any environmental benefits, but one thing is sure, if we carry on developing towns (the preferred option of brown field development) while relying on the same design and management of waste water systems, we are not going to get any advantages at all, just the same 'working on the edge' systems that are known to fail on a regular basis.

SUDS was a start, it just needs to be built on and expanded.

 

Southwest Water charge 

Water £1.9336/m³

Foul, Surface and Highway £3.2938/m³

Fixed charge £54.60/year

 

Thames Water charge

Water 149.62p/m³

Foul, Surface and Highway 90.51p/m³

Fixed charge (I can't find this, is there one?)

 

And we all know that Thames Water has a problem with supplying water.

Problem my arse, try the South West, we are paying 3.5 times to get rid of the waste and 30% for potable water.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by SteamyTea

[saveasteading]

Good points. But my point is that the rain from any new build should all stay on site. A harvester is one factor but permeable paving, soakaways, barrels and ponds are grossly underused.

[JamesP]

@Dave and Helen

I have RWH bought from the above company. Very helpful, I changed my order after paying a deposit and all sorted with ease.

Used for WC's and washing machine and recently lots of cement mixing.

 

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Good points. But my point is that the rain from any new build should all stay on site. A harvester is one factor but permeable paving, soakaways, barrels and ponds are grossly underused.

I agree, would also be good if all energy was generated on site.

I think the main problem is that homes just don't have enough area.  And many sit on the wrong sort of land. Probably why building on flood plains seems like a good idea.

[JOE187]

I have bought from them,  good service and reduced delivery charge as coming to my area for other customer.

   Only bought the tank with filters sourced all other parts locally.

 Recently fitted for a friend a halequin tank and pump package  considerably cheaper! though first pump failed early on which is same RH ltd supply.

  Ebara or Steel pump for in tank use.

[Nickfromwales]

On 30/12/2022 at 22:26, SteamyTea said:

Is that because we are not doing it at scale

Indeed. Domestic systems should ( IMO ) START at 10,000L minimum capacity, and only then would I EVER be an advocate of installing such a system. Even more prominent when my clients state that they are keen gardeners, have large grounds to jet-wash / water / lots of facades which they know will need regular cleaning etc. 

[Dave and Helen]

Many thanks for all the feedback on this topic, and especially for the two of you who have provided me with some feedback on the company in question. 

 

To provide a bit more background, the main reason for investigating and seriously considering RWH is for two reasons. We can't install soakaways due to heavy clay soil, the lane that runs past our plot is called Bog Lane for a good reason. We also have a planning condition, that states that each person occupying the dwelling will not exceed 110 litres of water per day and then quotes a associated building regulation (copy of the exact working attached). 
We're also looking to run all the remaining surface water, and the output from our proposed water treatment plant into a ditch that runs alongside the plot, and across a couple of field before it enters a local reservoir. 

 

Despite our project being based around the refurbishment of an old Severn Trent pump house and water tank, we had to pay Severn Trent to install a water supply, which is metered. To be honest, I've not idea what the water charges in our area are like, but knowing we're on a meter and that we're required to be mindful of how much water we use, seems like reason enough to consider RWH seriously. I seem to remember Severn Trent also offering to pay us the installation cost back, if we could commit to reducing our water usage by the same amount, so that would be an additional bonus. 

 

The additional plumbing complexity is a concern, reading the company's Trusted Reviews has highlighted an issue with their pumps, but they've explained this as 90% down to the installation and the fact the pumps are having to work much harder than they should due to leaks, and that recent changes to the pump's 'programming' now enable the pump to switch off and require a reset if a leak is detected. I guess this is something to be mindful of. 

I would agree, a larger tank would be preferable, but their 7500l tank is the largest shallow dig tank they offer. I guess we could look at installing a larger one, but I guess this would mean more muck away. 

 

Thanks for all the comments! 

 

Dave C

[Thorfun]

4 minutes ago, Dave and Helen said:

I would agree, a larger tank would be preferable, but their 7500l tank is the largest shallow dig tank they offer. I guess we could look at installing a larger one, but I guess this would mean more muck away. 

be careful about sizing the tank too big though as I was told by 2 separate RWH suppliers that the tank needs to overflow to get rid of 'stale' (if that's the correct word) water from at the top of the tank. if the tank is too big then it may never fill and never overflow. Rob @ rainwater harvesting did the calculations for me and suggested a 5000l tank for our roof size fitted the bill.

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, Dave and Helen said:

To be honest, I've not idea what the water charges in our area are like,

https://www.stwater.co.uk/content/dam/stw/my-account/our-charges/2022/st-hh-scheme-of-charges-22-23.pdf

 

Scroll to the end

[saveasteading]

58 minutes ago, Thorfun said:

the tank needs to overflow to get rid of 'stale' (if that's the correct word) water from at the top of the tank.

Some  interesting points, generating my fairly random thoughts.

 

Why would the water be 'stale'? It flows in and out, and although it will stratify a bit, it is not static. In any heavy rain, the flow will be considerable and mix all the water.

Then it goes into flush toilets and a bit of staleness isn't an issue  Does stale mean low in oxygen?

 

Inside the harvester tank is cold and totally dark, so no organisms should flourish there.

I constructed the last manhole before tanks as settlement tanks. A simple bulkhead with percolation* at mid height allowed stuff to float or sink before reaching the tank. But after 3 years it still wasn't worth skimming.

( I got our worst bricklayer to build the bulkhead, so it had lots of little leaks.)

 

I agree about making it bigger. Storms come for a prolonged period, and then so do dry spells. So a small tank wastes more to overflow, then runs out more quickly, both defeating the whole purpose of having it. At a rough guess , this could half your benefit.

 

Do suppliers still allow for a leaf bypass before the tank? It wastes 10% too, hence I used a settlement tank instead.

 

Suppliers are probably not used to integrated design where all the rain goes into the tank. More often the tank is an afterthought and doesn't pick up all the rain. So smaller tanks are maybe all that is required for,  say half the roof.

Have you designed, or can you still, to get all the rain? Send your drayage drawing if you want any thoughts.

 

Back to the 110 litres. That is reasonable, and I suspect easy to achieve unless using baths, washing the car or watering the garden frequently.

Presumably you have to provide a schedule,  and with tap and shower fittings, and wc control, modern dishwasher etc, this schedule can readily show the right number.

I suggest not listing an outside tap.

 

If all overflow ends up in a reservoir, perhaps soakaways should be discouraged anyway.

 

I'm actually impressed that planners/  water company are doing this.

There was an experiment in Ashford Kent (lots of flood risk/ no new water supply despite 30,000 new houses) where a whole new development had mains water control, and was metered on a different tariff. Very low charges for the first volume of water, then higher than the norm for greater use, and the charges were also increased  in summer. On balance it should have saved careful users.

There was lots of publicity at the launch but, as far as I know it fizzled out.   I'm guessing that the average person just uses whatever  they like then moans at the cost.

 

Your proposed supplier appears to include a header tank system. That will reduce power used, cycling and maintenance on the electric pump. That should also allow simple plumbing , with just a feed from harvester to header tank.

 

See what I mean about random? 

I'd say if you are so keen, go for it, as long as you can maximise the efficiency. There are dearer hobbies, and this one gives you some of your money back.

 

 

[Dave and Helen]

2 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

https://www.stwater.co.uk/content/dam/stw/my-account/our-charges/2022/st-hh-scheme-of-charges-22-23.pdf

 

Scroll to the end

Many thanks for the document... safely filled away