Anyone with experience of. Honeywell evohome system

[magunn]

We have a evohome Honeywell system but with only one zone  / thermostat.

it is connected to the Wi-Fi but not to the internet

so

how easy is it to have another zone and how does that actually work since all the radiators are on the same pump?

 

what advantage is it to be internet connected and what additional kit do I need?

[PeterW]

Yes - and they are crap…

 

Save your sanity and ditch it and swap for something else ..  

[SimonD]

56 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Yes - and they are crap…

 

Save your sanity and ditch it and swap for something else ..  

 

That's helpful 😉 I'd be interested to know why they're crap and what else to use.

 

3 hours ago, magunn said:

We have a evohome Honeywell system but with only one zone  / thermostat.

it is connected to the Wi-Fi but not to the internet

so

how easy is it to have another zone and how does that actually work since all the radiators are on the same pump?

 

what advantage is it to be internet connected and what additional kit do I need?

 

The advantage with being internet connected is that the evohome fetches weather data from the internet which it apparently uses for modulation purposes. Otherwise I think the only other advantage is the use of the app for remote control.

 

What you need to add to the evohome is a receiver together with a room thermostat for the additional zone. You then need an additional diverter valve controlled by the receiver. This way the receiver and evohome will open/close the relevant diverter valves to supply the zone. Your pump is then wired so that it receives a switched live when either/or/both zones demand heat. Adding the additional zone to evohome is simple, the plumbing may not be depending on how your system is designed. The expensive alternative is to add smart TRVs, but that may cause other unanticipated issues.

 

On the side of Evohome critique:

 

For me, one of the reasons i got an evohome was that at the time it was the only controller/programmer on the market that could support multiple zones including micro zones together with priority hot water (which is built into the programmer) together with load and weather compensation. It's not intuitive to set up and the problems I've found with it aren't entirely down to the controller but how the boiler manufacturers have decided to implement opentherm and heating/hot water controls as part of the boiler design, some of which come with several limitations. It seems that nowadays the boiler manufacturers are developoing their own systems to plug into the boiler that are easier to set up and guaranteed to be compatible. For example, I just fixed a problem with a Vaillant boiler with Vaillant's own controller where the heat curves had been set too low by the original installer (who had actually even replaced the first controller so there were two of them by the boiler). With the correct heat curve, the Vaillant's modulation is very refined with the built in weather compensation.

 

Unfortunately, Honeywell Evohome doesn't like to give the installer too much configuration access so it's difficult to know what it's doing but in other ways this makes it simpler to set up in the first place for a basic setups like s-plan/s-plan+ with load compensation as you simply follow a guided setup procedure.

Edited November 26, 2022 by SimonD

[Andehh]

We had a whole setup in our last place. UFH and Radiators and hot water, several zones internet controlled etc.

 

tbh it worked very well, managed it all together nicely and good app. It is an old system though, so is missing a lot of the new systems fancy tricks (Graphing, mesh networks etc)

 

That being said, it is tricky to setup & really finicky to fault find if something goes wrong. There is limited proper support for it, so you are very much left to get help via online forums (ie automatedhome.com) - though there is help out there.

 

I would recommend youtubes videos on it, esp set up & installation. Read the manual very well & follow the instructions. I probably rushed the installation which caused a few headaches, but looking back I would go with it again.

[PeterW]

12 hours ago, SimonD said:

Unfortunately, Honeywell Evohome doesn't like to give the installer too much configuration access so it's difficult to know what it's doing but in other ways this makes it simpler to set up in the first place for a basic setups like s-plan/s-plan+ with load compensation as you simply follow a guided setup procedure.

This is a problem for more complex mixes of UFH/Rads etc 

 

2 hours ago, Andehh said:

That being said, it is tricky to setup & really finicky to fault find if something goes wrong. There is limited proper support for it, so you are very much left to get help via online forums (ie automatedhome.com) - though there is help out there.

This is another issue - their own tech support usually end up saying “It’s not the system it’s your xyz etc at fault..”

 

It is expensive for the wall mounted thermostat / controller and it needs babysitting to get it right - you need the smart hub to get the full features which is another £65-70 so for the full all singing system you can be north of £4-450. There are plenty of other systems that will do the same for less with better support from experience - if you’re not comfortable spending time troubleshooting then it’s not for you.

 

 

[Andehh]

Yes, forgot to add... It is also expensive! Good point that. 

[Nickfromwales]

On 26/11/2022 at 22:45, SimonD said:

That's helpful 😉 I'd be interested to know why they're crap

I have relayed to Peter my own dire experiences with the Evohome system, installed for 2 clients ( one a brand new ZEB performance passive dwelling, and another an old stone cottage ) and I ( and the clients ) suffered irreparably for both accounts.

Painfully difficult to set up when you go to multi-zone / multi sensor, and after-sales and "tech" ( LOL ) support is a fcuking joke.

 

I am currently boxing the aforementioned installed equipment for delivery back to HW and have requested a full retail price refund to be issued to the client.

 

FYI, I have purchased from HW over the past 25+ years, and will continue to do so, however their EvH system will NEVER EVER be up for consideration on ANY of my up=coming clients new build projects. 👎   

Edited November 29, 2022 by Nickfromwales

[LnP]

I had a Honeywell EvoHome system in my last house, installed as part of a new boiler and DHW system project. The house was over 3 floors with a zone per floor (radiators), as well as a separate zone fo the UFH in the kitchen. There was also a zone for the DHW. The controller was connected to the wifi and hence to the internet. I liked being able to control it remotely and found the programming easy to use. A problem I was never able to resolve though was zones dropping out. The installer tried moving the zone valve receivers around on advice from HW, who said it was probably due to them being too close to something metal or a mains wire and that was interfering with the RF signal. Moving them didn't sort the problem out though. Looking back through the fault log, I was getting these faults on different zones every day. The faults would clear themselves without me taking any action, but it did mean occasionally no heating to a room when we wanted it.

 

I'm not in a hurry to buy another EvoHome system.

[markocosic]

On 26/11/2022 at 22:45, SimonD said:

I'd be interested to know why they're crap and what else to use.

 

Connectivity up and down like a whores drawers - Honeywell can't do internet enabled stuff reliably 

 

eTRVs eat batteries and are noisy as heck compared with others such as Danfoss

 

Open window detection naff and triggered if you since rooms and open/close doors for example

 

Did I also mention connectivity being crap?Couldn't trust it to do what is there for.

 

Buy Danfoss or Tado if wanting something in this space.

[LnP]

On 30/11/2022 at 00:17, markocosic said:

 

Buy Danfoss or Tado if wanting something in this space.

What about the Worcester Bosch EasyControl with smart TRVs? Any experience with that?

[SimonD]

On 30/11/2022 at 00:17, markocosic said:

Tado if wanting something in this space.

 Definitely not in the UK as Tado has removed Opentherm support in their UK models - now that is rubbish, what about working with all the UK boilers that are Opentherm compatible?

 

It's interesting to hear wider experiences of EvoHome. I have a multi-zone setup using Opentherm and priority hot water and it works very well. In the early days I received a communication error that Honeywell support attributed to me having set the system up on a way they said shouldn't be possible and had a bit of a laugh about it - I did have it set up in a peculiar way at that time (partly because I like to play around with these things to see what works and what doesn't). When I spoke to their support they acknowledged the EvoHome setup isn't the most accessible and suggested the best way is to attend the training days they provide.

 

The more I use the Honeywell Evohome the more I appreciate the interface and control I've got over my zones, it just takes a few minutes for configuration changes to be processed. Yep, it's expensive but there are very few other options on the market that provide the same Erp category, which can be important in some instances.

 

[markocosic]

It's back by popular demand 😉

 

The versions targeting f*ckmuppets sold in Screwfix don't have it - to avoid the complaints they got about lukewarm radiators.

 

Buy direct from the tado store and opentherm will be there.

 

 

 

 

No experience with Worcester Bosch. 

[SimonD]

3 hours ago, markocosic said:

It's back by popular demand 😉

 

The versions targeting f*ckmuppets sold in Screwfix don't have it - to avoid the complaints they got about lukewarm radiators.

 

Buy direct from the tado store and opentherm will be there.

 

Only on the combi model it appears. As for that video, it smacks of the type of company that makes my blood boil - removing functionality from a product without telling anybody in the market you're doing that? I personally only found out just before it was too late that they'd done this and no thanks to the company! It also suggests they have little clue about the market they're dealing with here in the UK. If there's not much uptake of a product, would you not sensibly investigate why and try to resolve the problem rather than dumb down the product to make it cheaper and at the same time claim the reduction in heating costs probably only realised by modulation? Also, there doesn't seem to be any understanding that they might need to communicate better to both customers and professionals doing the installation to understand the benefits of modulation. To me that video does very little to build any trust in the company even if the technology is fundamentally well designed - it still doesn't appear properly support modulation on all heating systems and boilers in the UK, and they haven't moved beyond Y and S plan....

 

IME lukewarm radiators are not the problem, it's being cold in the house.

[markocosic]

Yep. Tado deserve a kicking for doing it the way that they did. 

 

The market was researched* though. That was the problem. They went out to those buying in meaningful volume - the muppets slapping combis on the wall aka the  BG Hive market - and concluded that dumbing down the product was what the UK mass market indeed wanted.

 

If you do buy one that has the functionality in it though (i.e. the wired one) it'll do X-plan / PDHW and their internet skills are are way ahead of Honeywell. As is in they're reliable and the app isn't a dog and the TRVs don't sound like hornets gnashing through a pair of AAs every year etc.

 

 

*Comments from Tado themselves:

 

The wired thermostat is compatible with Opentherm and many other digital buses (when wired to the boiler), and has been for many years.

The 'old' Extension Kit we used to sell is compatible with Opentherm and many other digital buses.

The 'new' (2019?) Wireless Receiver (the replacement of the Extension Kit) has 2 versions:

EU version. Compatible with Opentherm and many other digital buses. Has 1 relay for legacy boilers.
UK version. Has 2 relays for typical UK heating systems (1 heating, 1 hot water). Not compatible with Opentherm or any digital bus.
Introducing 2 versions of the Wireless Receiver has obviously been extra work and effort from out perspective. We did this after a strong demand from the UK market for a simple to install, simple to configure device. UK installers were struggling with the configuration and wiring options our then-current devices offered. Because we noticed the adoption of Opentherm with the then-current Extension Kit in the UK was close to zero, we removed it to achieve extra simplicity for installation/wiring/configuration.

On the other hand, within the EU roughly no one is using 2 relays and bus adoption is high. Hence the other Wireless Receiver on those markets.

To not confuse customers, we simply offer 1 Wireless Receiver per market.

We will keep monitoring the demands of the market though. Also with x-to-water Heat Pumps which, depending on the market, tend to be controlled by a digital bus like Opentherm as well.

 

...what we did in the past in the UK. We had the Extension Kit with 2 relays and bus support. This strategy did not work, many installers in the UK simply could not handle the wiring and configuration options our Extension Kit provided. They ignored our manual, 'knew better', botched the installation and left. Resulting in frustrated customers with no heating. So we changed strategy, and the feedback has become much more positive. To be fair, we do get negative feedback for not offering bus in the UK any more. However, the general gist of the feedback we get from the UK is much more positive nowadays.

 

 

Back to my words:

 

Therefore both are now on offer; but you can only get the non-muppet version if you're literate enough to order from the Tado website. 

 

Having to work with some of the folks that shouldn't be offered the complicated version on a day to day basis; I can appreciate why Tado might do that...

 

 

Try both. I preferred the Tado setup to a Honeywell setup back when we were comparing both side by side.

[SimonD]

On 03/12/2022 at 21:38, markocosic said:

Therefore both are now on offer; but you can only get the non-muppet version if you're literate enough to order from the Tado website. 

 

No I can't. The wired version is not the one I'm after, nor is it the one my customers are after. Why? Because so many existing wired thermostats are installed in really stupid places in the UK. I'm just doing an install in a Georgian townhouse. The thermostat is installed in the basement next to the hot water cylinder and existing boiler, a floor mounted old behemoth of a boiler. I just completed another installation in another Georgian town house where the wired thermostat was in the 1st floor landing. I did 2 services in newbuilds where the wired thermostats had been installed in the hallway only an couple of meters from the front door with no relation to the living spaces. The customers don't want to pay for rewiring of a thermostat to somewhere else. So Tado still doesn't do a wireless smart thermostat that does modulation unless you have a combi. Still a problem in my view.

 

On 03/12/2022 at 21:38, markocosic said:

many installers in the UK simply could not handle the wiring and configuration options our Extension Kit provided. They ignored our manual, 'knew better', botched the installation and left.

 

At the end of the day, this is the biggest problem - to educate the installer base to do a proper job. But then it doesn't just apply to Tado. I just fixed a Vaillant system where the previous installer had fitted two Vaillant controllers to try and get it working and the problem was merely the heat curve.... but I have to say that in both instances as also with the Honeywell Evohome the manuals are total and under crap - if the manufacturers took the time to produce proper information, the story might just be a tiny bit different. IMHO

[markocosic]

I think you can; not just with combi but also pdhw via boiler etc.

 

Wireless units from the shops do not include Opentherm.

 

Wireless units from the Tado website also include Opentherm. 

 

https://www.tado.com/all-en/professional-manuals

 

https://www.tado.com/gb-en/professional-manuals

 

Extension kit on low voltage is the one you're after.

 

Not advertised. They got burned enough by less than professional professionals to make a special noddy kit for the UK market.

[SimonD]

On 04/12/2022 at 00:02, markocosic said:

I think you can; not just with combi but also pdhw via boiler etc.

 

Wireless units from the shops do not include Opentherm.

 

Wireless units from the Tado website also include Opentherm. 

 

https://www.tado.com/all-en/professional-manuals

 

https://www.tado.com/gb-en/professional-manuals

 

Extension kit on low voltage is the one you're after.

 

Not advertised. They got burned enough by less than professional professionals to make a special noddy kit for the UK market.

 

Well, to pick up on this topic, I've now had enough of Tado and I gave the product a chance. Here's why:

 

A customer contacted me to ask if would install a Tado on their s-plan system. I said I'd be happy to help. Boiler was a Vaillant and I recommended they use Vaillant's own system but they insisted on Tado. So, I called Tado installer technical department and told them what i wanted to do. Yes the technical support said, all you need to do is:

 

1. buy the wired thermostat

2. buy the add-on receiver from the professional store.

 

Big caveat was that despite saying their system supports digital control, they told me they do not guarantee that it will work with Vaillant's ebus. Okay, customer still happy to have a go.

 

So, on this advice customer orders all the kit and today I go to install it all only to find out that the add-on receiver does NOT support low voltage digital control but 230v relay only. I call the installer technical department to ask WTF only to be told that no, it is not possible to have a wireless modulating control with an s-plan using Tado reciever to control ch and dhw valves, not even Opentherm. I kind of went through what I'd been told and received a rather unhelpful re-assertion that the product I'm after doesn't exist. So what is the real story?????? Of course I can't phone their installer technical helpline to check now can I???

 

All I can say is a total load of (expletive deleted) rubbish. And then don't even get me started on the smart trvs with plastic adapters trying to get them to properly attach to existing 'heritage' trv threads and not fall off....

 

Clearly Tado and I have not got off to a good start. Meanwhile my Honeywell evohome ticks away, modulating my boiler nicely and reliably and provides easily accessible control to each zone doing everything it said on the box.

[markocosic]

That's shit service 😕

[Kelvin]

What is the ultimate benefit of it given the cost and apparent complexity? 

[SimonD]

19 hours ago, markocosic said:

That's shit service 😕

 Yup, so I wrote to Tado when having a moment. I wrote:

 

Quote

...

I was recently contacted by a customer wanting to install Tado in his house with a Vaillant boiler. I explained that I only install heating controls that provide modulation where compatible with the boiler. Given my customer’s insistence on using Tado, I agreed to contact Tado and spoke to one of your technical representatives about the system and whether I could achieve a system with digital control. I had this conversation on about 18th January.

I explained to your representative that it was an s-plan system, so heating and hot water control and modulation (i.e., digital control) and then to install a number of smart trvs. Your representative explained to me that what I/my customer needed to buy was 1 x wired thermostat and then purchase the ‘EU’ version of the wireless add-on which is available at the Tado Professional website. My customer ordered these as suggested.

Earlier this week I visited my customer to install the controls. On opening the add-on receiver box, I was disappointed to find that we had not received a receiver capable of digital control but only 230v relay. I then called your installer technical line to talk this through as I believed we had received the wrong product. On explaining the situation, you representative was entirely unapologetic and then told me, contrary to what I had been told earlier that it was not possible to install Tado with digital control on a s-plan system with hot water control. Clearly this was very disappointing.

In addition, I was concerned to be told by the first representative in January that although your manuals state that digital control with Vaillant boilers, you don’t officially support it and nor do you guarantee that it will work – this does not to me seem a reasonable position given that this is not communicated anywhere on your website, or within your materials.

From my professional perspective, this is embarrassing as I had based the purchase on advice, and I believe consistent with some public discussions about re-introducing digital control into the UK market. Even your installation manuals on the Tado Professional site cover installation of digital control in these circumstances. I also find that not providing a product for s/y-plan system with digital control quite unacceptable in this day and age, particularly given your energy use reduction promises on your website. This experience has also completely undermined my trust in Tado and means that I am highly unlikely to recommend or choose your products in the future.

Firstly, I’d like to ask for proper confirmation as to what the situation really is with regards to s/y plan systems and digital modulation in the UK and following this, clarification on whether I have been given incorrect advice and/or my customer received the wrong product. I’d also very much like to understand how you are planning to continue your offering within the UK.

I look forward to your reply.

Many thanks,

 

Granted I received a very quick response, but:

 

Quote

Thank you for contacting us.

I'm not sure which device your customer received exactly.

We have 2 Wireless Receivers, 1 for combi boilers, which has 1 relay and 1 digital connection (only 1 can be used at a time) and then also a Wireless Receiver for the UK market, which has 2 relay connections, 1 for central heating and 1 for hot water.

I really am not sure which agents you've spoken with earlier, I do not see any conversations with your email address.

With S/Y plan systems, they usually have a system boiler and a hot water cylinder. This type of system operates on zone valves and relays and is not capable of modulation.

In such instances, we do not support modulation. We don't have a device that has a modulating, digital connection for central heating and then a relay connection for hot water.

For that specific reason, we offer the Wireless Receiver UK, with Hot Water control, which has 2 channels, like a standard UK programmer/timer.

If the boiler is a combi boiler, they produce hot water on demand and can be controlled with modulation.

For combi boilers, we offer the Wireless Receiver for Combi boilers, now available in our UK Webshop and will continue offering this for combi boilers in the UK.

I understand that some customers can also have hot water cylinders in such homes, for additional hot water.

I am not exactly certain on the wiring of this works. From what I understand, the combi boiler automatically takes care of that cylinder.

We don't control the cylinder, we only control the combi boiler.

Kind Regards,

 

What I find particularly underwhelming is the claim that because s-plan operates using zone valves and relays it is not capable of modulation - a claim that is of course nonsense. Not even worth continuing the conversation with them, unfortunately.

[SimonD]

18 hours ago, Kelvin said:

What is the ultimate benefit of it given the cost and apparent complexity? 

 

Which do you mean by it? The Evohome? Simply that you have a lot of configuration choice, Opentherm, it's compatible with traditional fossil fuel heating as well as heat pumps, it supports priority hot water etc. It's also very easy to use through the main controller - access to configuring each zone schedule for heating and hot water is a doddle, so is any over-ride. If connected to the internet, you also get a mixture of both weather compensation based on downloaded weather data (not quite as accurate as weather comp component) and load compensation.

[billt]

There is some justification for their stance.

 

Combi boilers have built in temperature switching between heating, which has controllable flow temperature and hot water which has separate temperature control. It's easy to separate temperature control between hot water temperature and heating temperature as the boiler does this. The typical heat only boiler only has one temperature control, so hot water doesn't get to a high enough temperature.

 

I came across this issue with the Viessman 100 heat only boiler which I wanted to control with a Drayton Wiser control. Both claim to talk Opentherm, but they won't. Drayton will only use Opentherm with combi boilers. Viessman actually sell an adapter which sets the flow temperature to maximum when hot water is demanded, so Opentherm should be usable for heating water control just like a combi boiler but in reality it doesn't work.

 

As combi boilers are by far the dominant  boiler type in the UK I can understand why they don't support other systems.

[Kelvin]

23 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 

Which do you mean by it? The Evohome? Simply that you have a lot of configuration choice, Opentherm, it's compatible with traditional fossil fuel heating as well as heat pumps, it supports priority hot water etc. It's also very easy to use through the main controller - access to configuring each zone schedule for heating and hot water is a doddle, so is any over-ride. If connected to the internet, you also get a mixture of both weather compensation based on downloaded weather data (not quite as accurate as weather comp component) and load compensation.

Sorry I thought it was clear. The Evohome. Fitting a system that kindof sortof works is worse than no such system at all. Imo

[SimonD]

27 minutes ago, billt said:

There is some justification for their stance.

 

Perhaps there is but that isn't the point. The point, and long running complaint, is the poor and inaccurate communication and technical advice from the company about modulation where they simply removed this function in the UK without telling anyone and have since then reintroduced it with poor communication in a rather haphazard way. 

 

If they made it all clear to begin with, this discussion would not have arisen.

 

30 minutes ago, billt said:

The typical heat only boiler only has one temperature control, so hot water doesn't get to a high enough temperature.

 

There are many boilers on the market, heat only too, that do provide this. Needless to say, with proper opentherm communication, you can achieve significant savings through modulation even with a flow temperature set at 70C on the boiler to facilitate the heating of your hot water.

 

The moral of the story is to choose a boiler than can run at 2 distinct temperatures and then select compatible controls, many of which may actually be the boiler manufacturer's own controls, or if you're inclined like @Radian, hack the system yourself 😁 (PS I'd recommended my customer use the Vaillant controls but he insisted on Tado)

 

43 minutes ago, billt said:

Drayton will only use Opentherm with combi boilers

 

Yes, and when I last looked at using a Drayton Wiser system it was very clear in the technical specifications that hot water support wasn't there. To re-iterate, I telephoned the Tado installer technical helpline to configure the system, which then didn't work at all. That's a very different case.

[Nickfromwales]

On 07/02/2023 at 21:54, SimonD said:

Meanwhile my Honeywell evohome ticks away, modulating my boiler nicely and reliably and provides easily accessible control to each zone doing everything it said on the box.

Lucky bugger. Unreliable sack-o-shart IMO, and I've been fitting multi-zone systems for decades. This system is completely reliant on the 'perfect house' and anything beyond just sees drop-outs and zones / manifold wiring centres getting ghosted.

If I was offered one for free, I'd put it on eBay. 

 

Still waiting for Honeywell to respond regarding my clients full refund FFS.